Topic: Hot Button Issues

[|BUG| Shamu]

The "financial gain" is never for the people but for the companies.
Some will reconstruct cities and some will gain from the extra oil, what people will get in their wallet is a joke from another galaxy.

That is a fact, the gains are for business but the hope is that people also benefit as a result of business success.

I suppose that is Capitalism as opposed to Marxism.

For the US, even though we may complain about business profits and excess, but the reality is our living standards are rather high for most citizens. And also exceed those of most other countries.

IMHO even much higher than they should be for the undeserving that exist on our welfare system.

The liberal society, possibly best expressed by Karl Marx and Utopia is a fantasy. People are predatory animals well suited to power. People do not want to work for something and then give it away to those who do not do their share.

Someone will always want control, your best hope is that resonable people are in control.

[|BUG| Seven]

Actually Seven, I think our response has been very mild, far from the "boot" that could be applied.

While the methods can be debated, both here and abroad it cannot be said we took over the country.

As for the attitude you put in quotes "You can't use as an excuse "I am the strong guy in the block so I will do whatever necessairy"." The way it is written implies it is what I said.

Quotes imply someone said that, I did not, so who are you quoting?

I did not, I did say I would rather be in a position of power than one of weakness.

If you also think that is the attitude in the US, with power giving us the right to do what we want you are badly mistaken. Considering the power we have the truth is massive restraint has been shown.

Look at the initial war, Desert Storm, is there any doubt that restraint was not shown when our allied forces broke off the war?

Turns out that the restaint shown at that time may well have been a big mistake and caused the unnecessary persecution of many Iraqui's by Saddam.

restraint? what more could you do? start nuking places around the world? then I am glad you are restraint. 
So why you made "peace" with Saddam back then? it was the easiest time to beat him. what's the difference between then and now?
Why let things lead to another war?

S.

[|BUG| Seven]

I have to ask a question that is burning within me here. I keep seeing and hearing this "financial gain" and "they did it for oil" all the time. I dont see how this is possible. Have you noticed an increase of oil and the reduction in the price of fuel due to its abundance? No because we dont have it. So please someone tell me where all this oil is that we supposedly went after and received. Seems that it would drive down prices long ago if this were true.

     |Bug| Trauma

to me Trauma, the Iraq war is a mystery as I say above. Many ppl said (and I was one at the beginning) it was about the oils. But I dunno anymore, I still can't see what are the Pros for USA. It's just a big bloody mess.
The only I see making profit are the ones selling weapons and armory  and militarists oh yes and OPEK. Do you see the american ppl among those having any profit?

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

So why you made "peace" with Saddam back then? it was the easiest time to beat him. what's the difference between then and now?

S.

That's the problem with all of this stuff, you don't know what could of been, only what is.

It's that old saying about hindsight being 20-20, or "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

And for us commoners to even speculate on right and wrong is actually BS, none of us have enough knowledge of these situations upon which a truly educated opinion can be formed.

All we have are opinions and very few facts.

[|BUG| Shamu]

Okay, we may have beat that subject to death......any thing else where my expert opinion may be offered?

Abortion?

Capital Punishment?

Affirmative Action?

Right to Die?

Guns?

Gay Rights?

[|BUG| DaveRegio]

Bring Daisy around.  I've sharpened my debate skills enough to address those issues.  Feltan and OM are fine by me.

Shamu,

I think I'd probably consider your position one of non-intervention as opposed to isolationism.  It's a foreign policy view that at least does get involved in international affairs, although far more hesitant to involve the use of military force.  I would also use the term containment from the Cold War days but that may be inapplicable given the nature of terrorism and the ideology of radical Islam.

Your points on Marxism are dead on.  While I can understand the academic appeal of socialism (or even communism), history has shown why it is a failure.

As far as your other topics, I'll discuss anything with you other than capital punishment

Seven,

I really need to get a few history and read up on US foreign policy in the Middle East going back to the early 1950's when the CIA overthrew the democratic government in Iran and installed the Shah, who was overthrown in 1979 and we had a hostage crisis.  I would then be able to be able to explain why we not only supported the Hussein regime in Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War (as well as understanding the reasons behind this support) but also our support for the Mujahadeen fighters in Afghanistan against the USSR (those groups eventually becoming the Taliban regime).

Hindsight may be 20-20, but I believe if I do not learn from this and our other foreign policy decisions, I will be less informed.  In this day and age, I simply can not accept that of myself. 

Also, are you asking why we didn't march into Baghdad at the end of the first Gulf War?

[|BUG| Seven]

yo Dave!

well yes, why you think USA didnt finish the job in the Desert Storm war? Instead left an empargo that killed thousands of innocent ppl (chidlren mostly) and led to this stupid war.

As for the "history", I knew already. Americans might think that Iranies hate them cause Allah says so. But the truth is that the hate began since the days USA abolished the democracty in IRAN by installing a tyrant like the Shah that ruled the country according to foreign interests.
IRanies have one more reason to hate Americans, for the IRaq-Iran war that cost the lifes of MILLIONS where their opponent Saddam was supported openly by USA and other western countries.

And this leads to my next question: How many people in USA realy know about all this? Do they have any idea what is the background of this crissis? Do they know that their country is guilty as charged in the various Gulf crissis? Or maybe the question should be, do Americans really care anymore?
How easy is to manipulate one nation especially after the 11/9 attacks where people were flooded with "with us or against us" way of thinking? Is there any way for people to have an objective as possible idea of what's goin on?

I don't say that Greeks or Europeans are aware of everything and know everything, especially the new generations are dumber than ever. However they are much more informed than the US citizens, and at the end its the US citizens who vote for the "leader of the free world".

It's really scary, Europe is weak and doing nothing really than watching what the others decide. And US who has the balls to take decisions takes all the wrong ones. We are doomed! 

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

I don't say that Greeks or Europeans are aware of everything and know everything, especially the new generations are dumber than ever. However they are much more informed than the US citizens, and at the end its the US citizens who vote for the "leader of the free world".

All I can say is balls or BS.

I doubt very much that any populace is more informed than ours or Britain.

As for Greece and most of the rest of Europe you are on the outside looking in and are, without a doubt, less informed than the leaders or citizens of the US or Britain.

This is not saying we are right or defending our actions but I simply dispute the fact that you are more informed and forming opinions with information better than what is available to us.

You are not involved so how can you be that informed? I also doubt your media is as active as Britains or ours in digging for info.

Not to even mention the opinions and information offered by political rivals.

Bottom line is probably jealousy

[|BUG| Desert Eagle]

Okay, we may have beat that subject to death......any thing else where my expert opinion may be offered?

Abortion?

Capital Punishment?

Affirmative Action?

Right to Die?

Guns?

Gay Rights?

Abortion? Not able to bear childern, no thoughts.

Capital Punishment? Executions should be held daily, would cut down on the prison population and be a great derent to crime.

Affirmative Action? Yeah right, lets hire someone based on their "race" instead of their ability to do the job.

Right to Die? Yes, my dog can go off into the woods to die becuase my dog knows its time, I should be afforded the same.

Guns? The more the merry.  Maybe people would be nicer if everyone carried one.

[|BUG| Desert Eagle]

to me Trauma, the Iraq war is a mystery as I say above. Many ppl said (and I was one at the beginning) it was about the oils. But I dunno anymore, I still can't see what are the Pros for USA. It's just a big bloody mess.
The only I see making profit are the ones selling weapons and armory  and militarists oh yes and OPEK. Do you see the american ppl among those having any profit?

S.

You only see what the news media wants you to see.  You have to dig a little deeper to see some of the good that happens in Iraq.

The Pros?  One big one comes to mind, better to kill the terriost and the enemy in Southwest Asia instead of the shores of the United States.

[|BUG| Shamu]

Okay, we may have beat that subject to death......any thing else where my expert opinion may be offered?

Abortion?

Capital Punishment?

Affirmative Action?

Right to Die?

Guns?

Gay Rights?

Capital Punishment? Executions should be held daily, would cut down on the prison population and be a great derent to crime.

Affirmative Action? Yeah right, lets hire someone based on their "race" instead of their ability to do the job.

Right to Die? Yes, my dog can go off into the woods to die becuase my dog knows its time, I should be afforded the same.

Guns? The more the merry.  Maybe people would be nicer if everyone carried one.

Crap, can't find anything to disagree with

[|BUG| Shamu]

As far as your other topics, I'll discuss anything with you other than capital punishment

Darn, and thats the one that needs to be expanded and implemented more frequently

[|BUG| Seven]

I don't say that Greeks or Europeans are aware of everything and know everything, especially the new generations are dumber than ever. However they are much more informed than the US citizens, and at the end its the US citizens who vote for the "leader of the free world".

All I can say is balls or BS.

I doubt very much that any populace is more informed than ours or Britain.

As for Greece and most of the rest of Europe you are on the outside looking in and are, without a doubt, less informed than the leaders or citizens of the US or Britain.

This is not saying we are right or defending our actions but I simply dispute the fact that you are more informed and forming opinions with information better than what is available to us.

You are not involved so how can you be that informed? I also doubt your media is as active as Britains or ours in digging for info.

Not to even mention the opinions and information offered by political rivals.

Bottom line is probably jealousy

 

now in case you are not joking, how much of your population you think knows about the past of USA-IRAN-IRAQ?
Believe me here are more much informed and if they don't know they care to learn.

How much of ppl that can vote (not necessairy vote) in US even care to know?

You had  make jokes about the Frenchies but in the last presidential elections more than 80% went to vote even if its not obligatory.

So in the biggest democracy in the western world that leads it etc etc how much of the population is really active when the voters-turnout in the last presidential US election was 59%? (which is one of the biggest ever).
My point is that the citizens of the biggest superwpower of the world should have the responsibility to be informed, act, vote and decide more about their own future and the future of the world. Not just listening to the lies of their president and accept go to war without reasons. 

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

My point is that the citizens of the biggest superwpower of the world should have the responsibility to be informed, act, vote and decide more about their own future and the future of the world. Not just listening to the lies of their president and accept go to war without reasons. 

S.

The point I was making is not about who cares the most but who is informed the best. I still think citizens of the US are far better informed than those of other countries.

What they do with that information and how they choose to use or express it is also their choice.

What do you want to see? A revolution because one party was in power and was able to exercise it's influence? Not gonna happen.

Even now with the Democrats controlling the House and Senate it's still difficult to implement change, it takes time.

Recently the Democrats tried to tie funding for the intervention in Iraq to a set date for withdrawl of troops. Did not happen, they do not yet have the votes to overide a presidential veto.

However much of this activity may set the stage for the next election. With a significant change things may happen.

Also keep in mind how a democratic form of government works, change is very slow, action is slow, we do not have a dictator who can just make something happen immediately.

And while you find fault with the US also keep in mind we are, much to my regret, the largest provider of foreign aid in the world.

Yesterday Bush committed 30 BILLION $$'s to Aids research   , I hate even thinking how much of that goes overseas.

Better spent on our own senior citizens, health care, poor and military.

And yes, I was jesting, but with a hint of truth. No one likes the big guy on the block, it's just a simple rule of life.

[|BUG| Seven]

to me Trauma, the Iraq war is a mystery as I say above. Many ppl said (and I was one at the beginning) it was about the oils. But I dunno anymore, I still can't see what are the Pros for USA. It's just a big bloody mess.
The only I see making profit are the ones selling weapons and armory  and militarists oh yes and OPEK. Do you see the american ppl among those having any profit?

S.

You only see what the news media wants you to see.  You have to dig a little deeper to see some of the good that happens in Iraq.

The Pros?  One big one comes to mind, better to kill the terriost and the enemy in Southwest Asia instead of the shores of the United States.

It's interesting that (ex) militairy us ppl answer the same way... "there are things you don't know about this Iraq war so accept it and get done with it".
But we are not in the militairy where soldiers should always obay orders without asking why.

We are entitled to know everything about wars since it also affect us but mostly cause in a free world you just can't start wars like that, without at least informing the rest of the international community about the true reasons behind your actions.

And at the end if you had valid reasons to start it then why hide them under the lies of WMD?
We can't just accept rivers of bloods to shed with the excuse of some top secret we are not supposed to know. And think the  preceding is given to justify more future wars?


As for terrorism, there was none in Iraq untill you occupied it. Now Iraq is the biggest Al Queida reasoning for recruitment. If USA really knew something about Iraq involvment why not share it with the rest of us?
I am sure that if US had proves about Iraq and terrorism it would use it as a stronger card to start this war instead of the invisible massive destruction weapons.
USA used the terrorism excuse to invade Afganistan and most of the world didnt really opposed to this decision.

S.

p.s. A little disclaimer, since misunderstandings have happened in the past:
I am not an antiamerican, at least I don't think I am. What really makes me furious is having the only superpower left (USA) to act like a mindless bully, creating more troubles to iself and the rest of the world. And the impression I get is that American citizens are not informed or are misinformed about the whole situation and they are manupilated to show/prove their patriotism by defending blindly the actions of their dangerous goverment.