Topic: Any Regrets? August 6 & 9 1945

[|BUG| Shamu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

None here.

While I can express sympathy for the loss of civilian life, to include women and children, and life long suffering for some I have no regrets about Truman's decision to drop the bomb.

Needless to say I considered the Japanese a formidable enemy who without the bomb would have fought indefinitely to protect their homeland and emperor.

Considering the impact an invasion would have on our soldiers and further considering the revealed war crimes of the Japanese I am glad we had a President with the courage to make such a decision.

I have yet to see the documentary presented by HBO.....
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/whitelightblackrain/
but I understand it is quite dramatic.

When I have the opportunity to see it perhaps I can offer an opinion if it is slanted or not, until then no comment. At this point I have heard varying opinions.

I don't even know if people of our generation can even offer a fair opinion without having lived through the time in question. Very easy to sit back, review, and nit pick....... quite another to live through the time in question.

[|BUG| Seven]

Interesting, I saw a documentary on Tv last nite (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475296/).
Thewar had to end. period. And the Japs needed a bit hit to realise this.
But dropping  2 such horrible bombs on civilians was it necessairy?
Couldn't USA drop 2-3 bombs in military only targets?

So, I do find it  a crime of war. Killing civilians with bombs, atomic or not is a crime in my eyes. As crime as it was when Germans hit London again and again and again. As crime as it was when Dresden was wiped out of the map by the Allies for absolutely no other reason than to terrify the german civilians.

Americans would had lost  thousands of their army if the war would go on. So they prefered to sacrifice thousands of the enemy's civilians instead. How ethical and acceptable you would find this if the Japs had used the atomic bomb first on YOU for the same reason?
And is it a "justified" action because at the end, the winner is the one always right?
The Allies were supposed to fight against fascism and imperialistic ideologies. The Allies supposed to be the good guys fighting against evil. You have to prove with your action that you are better than these guys.

I have to add I don't accept the excuse of collateral dammage or that "in love and war everything is allowed" (well for the love part... ).
I dont accept the excuse of war but that's another subject.
Militarist idiots and war fanatics should play their stupid war games sacrifying none else but themselves. It is at least unethical to make  your battle plans and include into them the loss of life of innocent people without even asking them if they are willing to pay this price.

Yeah I know I am a tree hugging liberal. And I believe in "you should never do to others what you would never want others do to you".

S.

[|BUG| Desert Eagle]

Interesting, I saw a documentary on Tv last nite (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475296/).
Thewar had to end. period. And the Japs needed a bit hit to realise this.
But dropping  2 such horrible bombs on civilians was it necessairy?
Couldn't USA drop 2-3 bombs in military only targets?

I believe this was a World War and in World War's civilians die and are fair game.  If those civilians did not what to partake in that World War they had the option of overthrowing their government and ending the war. 

So, I do find it  a crime of war. Killing civilians with bombs, atomic or not is a crime in my eyes. As crime as it was when Germans hit London again and again and again. As crime as it was when Dresden was wiped out of the map by the Allies for absolutely no other reason than to terrify the german civilians.

Did you know that more people were killed in the fire bombing of Dresden than the 2 bombs dropped on Japan? Anyways breaking the peoples will to fight, is the fastest way to end a war. 

Americans would had lost  thousands of their army if the war would go on. So they prefered to sacrifice thousands of the enemy's civilians instead. How ethical and acceptable you would find this if the Japs had used the atomic bomb first on YOU for the same reason?
And is it a "justified" action because at the end, the winner is the one always right?

Actually not thousands. More around 1,000,000 allied causalities. That would be wounded and killed.  Well soon enough when some rogue state gets their hands on a nuclear weapon, rest assured it will be used on US soil.  Then finally American's will wake up and our wraith will be swift and change the world we all live in today for the better.

The Allies were supposed to fight against fascism and imperialistic ideologies. The Allies supposed to be the good guys fighting against evil. You have to prove with your action that you are better than these guys.

The Allies were fighting against evil.  The Japs killed over one million civilians in China, Korea and the Philippians before and during World War II.

I have to add I don't accept the excuse of collateral dammage or that "in love and war everything is allowed" (well for the love part...  ).
I dont accept the excuse of war but that's another subject.
Militarist idiots and war fanatics should play their stupid war games sacrifying none else but themselves. It is at least unethical to make  your battle plans and include into them the loss of life of innocent people without even asking them if they are willing to pay this price.

Tell that to the Sucider Bombers that not only kill military targets but their own people.

Yeah I know I am a tree hugging liberal. And I believe in "you should never do to others what you would never want others do to you".

Good thing the Allies did win or you may be speaking German or Japanese and not allot to be a tree hugging bunny lovin liberal....

[|BUG| Shamu]

We have to remember that we are looking at it from a mindset 60 years removed from the time in which the decision was made.

Perceptions will be different simply because we had not lived through the war and cannot begin to understand the sentiment and values entertained by the people of the period.

Bombing areas of civilian population to me is not a crime in any way shape or form. It is an act of war and has been so since time began.

Smart bombs of today have lessened civilian casualties but even now it still occurrs.....so be it.....I do not care.

Also consider that manufacuring areas, especially 60 yrs ago, were in highly populated areas. Simply by the internal location of military targets civilian populations were killed.

And aside from the target value you have to beat the people who support their government. For the Germans who bombed London, the Allies who fire bombed Dresden or the U.S. who dropped the big one you had to beat the people (read "civilians") to win. Break the will of the people and the war can be won.

On a smaller scale that is exactly what Norh Vietnam did to win and the Muslims are doing now in different ways. With the help of the liberal press and targeted acts of violence they are breaking the US population of the will to fight.

Give us some credit, we did not hit Tokyo. I also think Hiroshima was a secondary target because weather over the target city was poor.

Anyway..... they started it, we finished it, and the victor can write the history.

[|BUG| Seven]

I believe this was a World War and in World War's civilians die and are fair game.  If those civilians did not what to partake in that World War they had the option of for not overthrowing their government and ending the war? 

Oh comon now DE! Thats a simplistic way of puting things and a very dangerous as well. You don't punish misguided civilians or people with wrong beliefs by vaporising them!
Goverments or resumes  that start wars always have done the right propaganda in order to have their own ppl in their side.
Not to mention how well they know how to play the "patriotism card: "I know this war is wrong..but I support our troops" (rings a bell?)

See the US-Iraq war: Us goverment used misleading facts  to get its ppl's support (WMD, connection of IRaq with Al Quada). Does that means american civilians should be murderded for believing the lies or not overthrowing Bush for starting a war based in lies?
You are talking like Osama's followers here and you dont even realise it: they use the same argument, kill americans, any americans for supporting Bush.

Did you know that more people were killed in the fire bombing of Dresden than the 2 bombs dropped on Japan? Anyways breaking the peoples will to fight, is the fastest way to end a war. 

Sure, I know it is, but doesnt mean I aprove it and I like it. Its a matter of beliefs and perspective.

The Allies were fighting against evil.  The Japs killed over one million civilians in China, Korea and the Philippians before and during World War II.

I didnt say Axis were angels or anything. But that good Allies should think twice before doing evil actions as well.

Tell that to the Sucider Bombers that not only kill military targets but their own people.

Those are also militarists dear, in my eyes anyway. They also beleive in the power of war/violence/weapons/etc etc. I put them all in the same team: war hawks.
I dont descriminate criminals who kill innocent ppl.

Good thing the Allies did win or you may be speaking German or Japanese and not allot to be a tree hugging bunny lovin liberal....

We could never know what would happen if US hadn't dropped the bombs in populated areas.
We could't even know what would happen if Germans had won  the war. Cause its simple: With Ifs you don't make history. But I must say speaking German is not very appealing!!! 

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

I believe this was a World War and in World War's civilians die and are fair game.  If those civilians did not what to partake in that World War they had the option of for not overthrowing their government and ending the war? 

Oh comon now DE! Thats a simplistic way of puting things and a very dangerous as well. You don't punish misguided civilians or people with wrong beliefs by vaporising them!
Goverments or resumes  that start wars always have done the right propaganda in order to have their own ppl in their side. Not to mention how well  they DO know how to patronise and manipulate ppl's patriotism feelings.

See the US-Iraq war: Us goverment used misleading facts  to get its ppl's support (WMD, connection of IRaq with Al Quada). Does that means american civilians should be murderded for believing the lies or not overthrowing Bush for starting a war based in lies?
You are talking like Osama's followers here and you dont even realise it: they use the same argument, kill americans, any americans for supporting Bush.

Did you know that more people were killed in the fire bombing of Dresden than the 2 bombs dropped on Japan? Anyways breaking the peoples will to fight, is the fastest way to end a war. 

Sure, I know it is, but doesnt mean I aprove it and I like it. Its a matter of beliefs and perspective.

The Allies were fighting against evil.  The Japs killed over one million civilians in China, Korea and the Philippians before and during World War II.

I didnt say Axis were angels or anything. But that good Allies should think twice before doing evil actions as well.

Tell that to the Sucider Bombers that not only kill military targets but their own people.

Those are also militarists dear, in my eyes anyway. They also beleive in the power of war/violence/weapons/etc etc. I put them all in the same team: war hawks.
I dont descriminate criminals who kill innocent ppl.

Good thing the Allies did win or you may be speaking German or Japanese and not allot to be a tree hugging bunny lovin liberal....

We could never know what would happen if US hadn't dropped the bombs in populated areas.
We could't even know what would happen if Germans had won  the war. Cause its simple: With Ifs you don't make history. But I must say speaking German is not very appealing!!! 

S.

Seven's upset......she's spamming the forum

[|BUG| Desert Eagle]

Oh comon now DE! Thats a simplistic way of puting things and a very dangerous as well. You don't punish misguided civilians or people with wrong beliefs by vaporising them!
Goverments or resumes  that start wars always have done the right propaganda in order to have their own ppl in their side. Not to mention how well  they DO know how to patronise and manipulate ppl's patriotism feelings.

Well my x-wife is from Germany.  My grandfather was killed in Holland by the Germans.  My Grandamother did not hold it against my wife or the German people.  My x-wife's Grandaparents weren't against Nazi German.  For it they were imprisioned twice and had there home burned down twice.

See the US-Iraq war: Us goverment used misleading facts  to get its ppl's support (WMD, connection of IRaq with Al Quada). Does that means american civilians should be murderded for believing the lies or not overthrowing Bush for starting a war based in lies?
You are talking like Osama's followers here and you dont even realise it: they use the same argument, kill americans, any americans for supporting Bush.

Americans have been murdered.  I thing around 3,000 of them were in New York City alone on 9/11.  War was not based on lies. Osama's followers would kill American regardless who is the president.

Sure, I know it is, but doesnt mean I aprove it and I like it. Its a matter of beliefs and perspective.

Here is a famous quote, but you will have to find out on you own who spoke it..  "Sometimes to battle evil, one must do a Greater evil"

I didnt say Axis were angels or anything. But that good Allies should think twice before doing evil actions as well.

This is from personal combat experience Seven, "It is easy to kill another man in the combat, but if you are "human" you will have to live with it for the rest of your life.

Those are also militarists dear, in my eyes anyway. They also beleive in the power of war/violence/weapons/etc etc. I put them all in the same team: war hawks.
I dont descriminate criminals who kill innocent ppl.

Militarist at 10 or 12 years old? I think not, just kids brainwashed with beliefs that USA = Evil.  Do you see Americans sending 10 or 12 years old to blow up thier enemeis?

We could never know what would happen if US hadn't dropped the bombs in populated areas.
We could't even know what would happen if Germans had won  the war. Cause its simple: With Ifs you don't make history. But I must say speaking German is not very appealing!!! 

No honestly they should have dropped both bombs in the center of Tokyo.

If not for the Greeks a couple of thousands years ago, perhaps the world never would have known decomarcy. But to achieve it the Greeks went to war..

Remember Seven at attack your postion and not you..

[|BUG| Shamu]

No honestly they should have dropped both bombs in the center of Tokyo.

Actually I believe the decision not to bomb Tokyo was in recognition for the need for the Emperor to survive and end the war.

To the Japanese the Emperor was a God, to kill him might have had negative results in attaining the desired goals.

The same premise was used in not trying the Emperor for war crimes, he and his position were needed to guarantee the capitulation of the Japanese Empire and the stabilization of the subsequent occupation.

Bottom line was a consensus opinion that they should not kill him or even try him for war crimes because he was needed to end the war and hostilities.

I would have not been so logical, Tokyo would have been vaporized at the earliest possible date and let the cards fall where they may.

[|BUG| Desert Eagle]

I would have bombed Tokyo to prove to the Japanese people that the Emperor was not a God.

[|BUG| Seven]

Seven's upset......she's spamming the forum

Lol! I didnt see the 2nd post..dunno how happened..oh well I cencored myself and removed it! 

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

BTW......August 10, 1945, Japan surrenders.

Without the Bomb and vaporizing the civilians I doubt they would have surrendered.

That alone, for me, justifies the bomb.

I also recognize that having Russia declare War on Japan sped the surrender along. Seems no one, German or Japanese wanted the Russian's capturing them.

Probably boring reading but fuel for both sides on the decision to drop the bomb:

http://www.dannen.com/decision/

[|BUG| Seven]

I replied that yesterday but with the site down couldnt post it.

the most that I hate in this topic is the quoting procedure, boring  stuff

Americans have been murdered.  I thing around 3,000 of them were in New York City alone on 9/11.  War was not based on lies. Osama's followers would kill American regardless who is the president.

Your presi didnt start a war against Iraq using any Terrorism /anti terrorism excuse (that was the Afganistan one). It was the WMD "reason" he used. I think we have covered this enough in other topics. Anyway my point was that people would had never gone/tolerated any kind of war without the right propaganda and the call for their patriotism feelings.
And it also was against the  "you tolerate this war so we will kill you
for this"  attitude.

Note: I honestly detest this..."you don't agree with the war your country (co)started? you are not a patriot then!". This is the worst argument ever.

This is from personal combat experience Seven, "It is easy to kill another man in the combat, but if you are "human" you will have to live with it for the rest of your life.

I believe you. Which why exactly I don't like wars or arseholes who drag people into wars for nothing.

Militarist at 10 or 12 years old? I think not, just kids brainwashed with beliefs that USA = Evil.  Do you see Americans sending 10 or 12 years old to blow up thier enemeis?

Americans dont need to send kids to fight their war, they have the best army in the world to do it. The "others" don't have these means, they use what they have...what's easier to use as  a weapon than a brainwashed uneducated poor and desperate bastard or a kid with no future than the one you promice him as a "hero"?.
In my eyes they are as horrible as the politicians who sent troops to fight for their interests. Dunno how to explain better.

If not for the Greeks a couple of thousands years ago, perhaps the world never would have known decomarcy. But to achieve it the Greeks went to war..

Sure every country is build on blood. Greece, USA.
And humanity seems not to be able to stop this bad habit of killing eachother (isnt human race the only one in nature that can murder?). However don't ask me to support/tolerate crime of wars or acts of violence.

It was horrible as for the millions of Chinese who brutally died in the hands of Japs as it was for Japs citizens to die the way they did in Hirosima and Nagasaki. Yes the militaristisc and imperialistic Japan didnt seem to give too much value in human life back then, but we are supposed to be  better than this, which brings me to
"sometimes to battle evil, one must do a Greater evil". ermm sorry not my thing.
If the result of this battle is for you to loose your humanity then the cost is way too high.

As Shamu said, we havent lived during ww2 so we really can't know how ppl felt back then and what we would do in their place. But trying to learn from history and not behave the same again would be a good thing. But ermm nope we are still the same idiots and we still use violence to resolve matters.

Remember Seven at attack your postion and not you..

hee hee don't worry, even if I don't understand why you wouldnt like my position...oh well... 

S.

[|BUG| Seven]

Long post but contains testimonies from ppl who had survived ww2


My grandma's sister who is still alive experienced the whole hell of war/nazi occupation. She was then 18 in 1940 when Italy declared war to Greece. I asked what she was feeling back then.
I asked her if back then she would prefer Greece to wipe out Italy in order to have the war end.  Mind you she had already lost a bro in a previous war and she had her fiance, her brothers, her sister's husband in the  front line fighting Italians... so she had the strongest motive for the war to end. Not to mention she had experienced the bombing of Athens areas. When my grandma was ready to give birth to my mom they were trying to reach the hospital  thru a bombing attack by germans planes.

Her answer was "no!! I didnt want innocent italians to suffer,  just the war to end".
She also suffered the Nazi occupation which was quite traumatic for Greeks (we had I think the biggest casualties in analogy with our population) and especially in Athens where people were dying by thousands from starving. When she describes the Nazis the fear is there. When she is telling me how she was walking in the streets trying not to step on dozins of people who were lying dead or halfdead she is crying. When I asked her if she would have a problem with the death of thousands of  German civilians in order for the war to stop she said she wouldn't want such a thing to happen. And she kept reminding me how horrible war is and how much horrible things people do during the war.

That's the most recent witness I have from WWII. Similar views I remember getting from my grandma (who gave birth not yet knowing if her husband was still alive), her brother who fought against the Turks in the 1922 war (a war with a devastating result for Greece). My uncle's testimony about the war was heartbreaking. Its a miracle he managed to return alive from the deep of Turkey.
Greece lost a lot from that war...hundreds of thousands died.. more than a million Greeks became refugees in Greece and never went back to their home countries. But despite of this there wasnt any hate in his eyes when he was telling me his war ordeal only tears.

I  know with time people forgive and are mercyful. But the idea I got is that  back then even  during the days of their suffering they kept their humanity, their courage, their strengh and their degnity. A dignity that of course all Greeks lost by  killing eachother in the civil war that followed...

To conclude, It's interesting to see such generous feelings from  simple and mostly uneducated people during really hard times. I certainly doubt modern Greeks would react the same. But who knows? I could be wrong. But I have the feeling simple people are more human than their generals and their presidents who usually are safe away not suffering, just causing pains to others.

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

I admire her graciouness towards persons declaring war on her country and people, she can live without hate that can be a consuming passion.

I also wonder how much she knew of the concentration camps and, if that was known, would she have possibly had a different view.

Then again there are people who can turn the other cheek and forgive those who have done wrong against them, perhaps that is her nature. Basically a peaceful person at heart

Mine is not, I want satisfaction and I want to win. I want accountability for war crimes, including those comitted by our own soldiers. I want punishment for crime, not pardons and forgiveness. In society strength usually beats intellect, I also believe the fear of retribution or punishment is a deterrant.

However, once the war is over, the guilty judged and dealt with I hold no lasting ill feelings. I have absolutely no dislike of the Japanese or German people, the war is over as are any hostile intentions. Both in fact are strong allies and firends of the US. For me WW II is no longer any issue to affect  my personal feelings to another person.

It's just that is war it's a matter of survival and a just peace. The war is one country against another, that includes the civilians who work in support of the war. While military targets should be the priority there will be collateral damage. Civilians will be killed.

And keep in mind this was about the bomb and winning the war. These bombs were perceived to have the ability to force a surrender and they did.

Your post sounded, to me, like you were asking her if she hated the German people and wanted revenge. I do not think hate was the basis of the decision to drop the bomb, it was a tactical decision.

Many of us here did hate the Japanese because of Pearl Harbor but many of the American people supported the  bomb, after the fact,  as a tool of war without any concious hate of the people. For many it was rather impersonal without much thought to consequences, simply another weapon to bring the war to it's end.

Keep in mind hardly any Americans in the general population knew what that bomb could do. It was ultra secret in a day when secrets could be kept.

I do still say, if I lived in that time, I would have supported dropping the bomb providing I could not see the future.

As for the future result I wish nuclear power had never been discovered.

[|BUG| Seven]

I asked if she hated the Germans, not sure about her answer, she said people where fear them I do think there was some hate involved..or big deslike if you prefer. I asked if she would accept the loss of innocent Germans as a solution to win the war or for the war to over. She says she doesnt want other people to suffer like Greeks  did.
I dont think she turned her other cheeck, it was a matter of survival but I dont also think she would support a nuclear bomb on Germany if she knew what it could do.

She didnt have to know about the camps of death Shamu, Athens was like a camp of death with all the people literaly dying in the streets from hunger, the  roadblocks, the arrests, the excecutions.
People were informed about German's attrocities, many many greek villages were wiped out. Houses destroyed and people murdered by SS  paiying the price for the attacks of the greek partizans.
Which is I guess what happened to any occupied country with resistanse movements.

As for the rest you say on countries going to war and how they "behave" its one cynical point of view, which I guess its the most popular. I still believe the "bombs" were a crime of war.

Starting a war doesnt resolve anything just causes more troubles. Germany, Italy and Japanese who started the wwII only managed to destroy their own countries and brought their horror in the countries they attacked or occupied.
What was the last big country started a war recently? hmm ..USA. Did US war resolved anything really?
Wars is not a solution. When violence starts brings more violence and at the end you back to square 1. Will people ever learn?

naaaah

S.