Topic: GAZA

[|BUG| Seven]

I am angered that Israel so cynical invades the largest prison of this world.. a small strip of land with 1.5 millions of poor ppl stacked in it.

I am angered that in this century, a supposedly civilized country uses so much force KNOWING that in the process many women and children will get get killed in horrible ways.

I am wondering... why Israel is not punished from the frakking international courts for using  Cluster Bombs in urban areas? CLUSTER BOMBS* in the  the frakking most idensed populated little area in the world. Like someone throwing cluster bombs in the area of Manhattan. Oh wait.. I forgot.. USA HAS USED CLUSTER BOMBS in Afganistan. USA hasn't signed the Wellington Declaration not to use them. (And Greece has done the same... nice buttholes we are as well)

I am angered that a nation that has suffered the worst kind of abuse in WW2 uses the same tactics against humans like if Israel is the  biggest gathering of sociopaths on earth.
Israel officially attacks Gaza for the handmade cheap rockets Hamas fires against it. For the few deaths of poor Israeli citizens we have hundreds of murdered palestinians. NAZI SS troops used to kill 100 hostages for 1 dead german soldier..

I am angered that 1,5 million ppl suffer in horror and the so called civilized Israel doesn't allow humanitarian help and leaves people to slowly die in the primitive hospitals of one of the poorest corners of earth.

I am angered that NOBODY stops them.

I am angered that this butthole BUSH and the new butthole in command OBAMA, both  keep protecting Israel's war crimes.

I am angered and ASHAMED that "United Europe my big greek butt" doesn't do anything as well.

I am disgusted that the UN is just a useless piece of crap organization, protecting no one than the interests of the powerfull.

I am loosing hope when I read that the Gaza attacks are critical for the success of the ruling party in the Israel's upcoming elections. ELECTIONS..they KILL children to win the frakking elections..

I am afraid of what will follow.. thousands of innocent murdered palestinians how MANY new terrorists will create?

I am furious when I hear that the Israeli Army needs a success after the fiasco against Hezbollah in Lebanon and Gaza is the perfect place to achieve it. How much pride the Israeli army will regain with killing sitting ducks targets and children?

Yes Hamas are terrorists that get lots of help from IRAN. But things are not just black and white, the Palestinian fight for an independent state has been manipulated by many. But in any case NOBODY should tolerate the murder of innocent people to win over Terrorism or wars. If Hamas wrongly hides behind children, Israel still remains a murderer and an even worst terrorist by firing against them.
What excuse could be enough for killing children? NONE!

And if you think that all this won't affect your settled lives you are SO wrong.  It will affect us all. Just think of 11/9 and how our lives changed since then.

S.

* Because cluster bombs release many small bomblets over a wide area, unexploded bomblets can kill or maim civilians long after a conflict has ended. Unexploded submunitions are very costly to locate and remove.
Cluster bombs are prohibited under the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which was adopted in Dublin in May 2008 and signed by 94 nations on 3-4 December 2008 in Oslo. The general rules of international humanitarian law aimed at protecting civilians also apply to cluster bombs as they do to all weapons.

[|BUG| Shamu]

And guess what, bombing and invading Gaza bothers me not in the least, nor does the collateral damage that has been caused. In fact makes reading the news a bit interesting. Better a nice little war than the economy collapsing around us.

This is something Hamas should have considered before they broke the truce, before they stored munitions in mosques and residential areas. Oh wait, they probably did consider what would happen to their people, they just do not care.

Hard to find sympathy for a group that will stoop so low as to use children as suicide bombers. If they do not care about their citizens why should Israel or anyone else.

And this is coming from a person who thinks our support of Israel has harmed the American relationship with Muslim people. Israel is made up from land given to them by the UN and stolen from Muslims, they did not even earn it. I am far from a supporter of Israel, I just do not disagree with Israel's current action considering the circumstances.

If someone were to lob rockets on my family I would expect my government to use any means at our disposal to terminate them short of nuclear war. Not just shoot rockets back, annihilate the buggers with bombs or any power we have.

I do not think Israel should have a ground invasion, just continue to bomb them. Why risk death and capture of the Israeli soldiers? As barbaric as Hamas is we should be treated to some head chopping soon.

Of course I felt the same about Iraq, just bomb them until nothing was left but do not send our soldiers in harms way.

I also suspect that if Hamas had the resources they would be doing the same to Israel with very little concern for women or children.

So let them keep punching each other but keep my family out of it.

Seven, I nominate you for peace keeping duty

[|BUG| Seven]

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NOTHING JUSTIFIES THIS. NOTHING.
I dont care if Hamas and Israel like to killing each other.
But when you shoot without discrimination and you kill innocent ppl you are a MURDERER. Hamas are murderers. But Israel is too. And Hamas is not a member of UN. Israel is. Hamas doesnt have laws and a constitution, Israel has.
Hamas is NOT SUPPORTED by USA, ISRAEL is.

Next time you see the news, feel entertained by reading them and justify Israel's actions, look at this photo and think of your grankid. With the same logic of the civilized and  legitimate country called Israel, anyone who feels threatened and wants to protect itself can do the same.


Werent the Brittish that called George Washington a terrorist?
Werent the Ottomans/Turks  that used to call the Greek Revolutionists terrorists?
How many colonists were called terrorists fighting for theirs independence? or you think that Revolutionists only killed the "bad guys"? Greeks slaughtered in some cases turkish  innocent people in the course of their freedom war.
What makes Palestinians fighting for their lands different than the "Americans" of George Washington or the Greek Rebels?
Things are not just black and white as Israel and USA present them to be all the time.

in any case, if the civilization  of USA and Israel  is to have innocent people getting killed because they are not americans or israelis so we don't care... why don't you just remain inside USA build a wall around you and live happily ever after with yourselves?
This way you will save us from your "care" and "justice" that apparently is  only for the interest of the american and israeli people in expense of all the rest of the world.

Hypocrites.

S.

[|BUG| Seven]

Imaginary dialogue between 2 of the terrorists before they begin their horrible 11/9 mission:

- Hey terromate, I wonder why to kill innocent american people?
- Well USA government is harming us and acts against us.
American people voted for them, they brought this government in power this proves there are no innocent Americans.
- But we might kill people who live in USA and don't agree with their government actions. Or they made a mistake to vote like this. Is it right to kill them for voting badly?
- Our aim is to protect our cause and fight for our existance, not to worry about the enemy's casualties. And  If the USA  government  can't protect  and care about their own citizens why should we?
-You are right, they voted for the Satan they will die. Ok lets go to the airport.

Does this kind of logic sounds familiar?

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

There is little with which I agree with regarding your sentiments Seven, it's a WAR, inocents get killed. I accept that. Bad luck for them and thats all there is to it.

Possibly the only common ground would be the use of mines, which Hamas was planting, and often remain long after the war is over or the use of cluster bombs in densely populated areas. I would also object to gas warfare. But those opinions are just cold, calculating, technical opinions with no political agenda.

Your rants reek of political bias as opposed to objective based opinions. Why no rants when they use suicide bombers specifically targeting the civilian population? They openly aim to kill the average citizen, not a military target, but I see no rant anger or even caring. Is that okay for them? Are their rockets, that are aimed indiscriminately, okay for them?

At least Israel has military targets to attack and it is simpy unfortunate civilians get killed primarily because of the location of the targets.

Do political opinions influence the side of your choice or are you completely objective? I suspect they do and that your opinions are based more on political bias than an objective viewpoint.

You should have seen me and my wife's Irish relatives argue. They are Irish Catholic and were active supporters of the IRA. I am not, I think the IRA are also terrorists because they too target civilians, not just military targets.

Oddly enough they now pretty much share my view and oppose the actions of the old IRA. In fact they no longer want to see Ireland united. The Republic of Ireland is doing very well but the North is an economic disaster linving on subsistance from Britain. Uniting Ireland would possibly bring economic ruin to the Republic.

Ah well, let Hamas throw it's sticks and stones and bring all this suffering on their own people. If they had not broken the truce this would not be happening.

Shame on them.

[|BUG| K-Man]

The situation in the mideast is truly sad. This seesaw of conflict has taken place in cycles since 1948 when the state of Israel was formed, and frankly, based on the history dating back thousands of years, I do not see an end in sight.

I agree - war is terrible. Terrorism is terrible. It should certainly be avoided, but WWII shows what avoidance at all costs brings (look at Baldwin and Chamberlin's policies in England, as well as the French leadership).

I note that a fundemental difference between most revolutionary uprising's such as the American revolution and likely the Greek revolution, is that the aim was to achieve independence from a government, but not to utterly destroy a people. The policies of Hamas and Hezbollah border on the latter.

It is a known fact that the policy of Hamas, Hebollah, Syria, and Iran is to destroy the nation of Israel (this from Wikipedia). Going back to the 1947/1948 plan, the idea was to have two nations - Israel, and an arab Palestinian state. The Palestinians did not agree to the plan *because* the plan called for an Israel state. This was not acceptable to them. As a result of guerrilla attacks the arabs began, Israel became convinced that this was a prelude to a larger attack and declared independence the day before the end of the UN mandated British occupation. The next day five (count'em - Five) arab nations invaded Israel - Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq, not to mention Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia who also sent troops to aid in the invasion.

This history tempers my perspective.

The Wikipedia section on Israel's early years is informative on the sequence of events that led to it's formation. Link Here. Fact is that the Palestinians have acted with hostility towards Israel for a _very_ long time.

Does that justify killing innocent civilians? No. Does it justify what Hamas is doing? No.

So, we are left with one established nation-state that is plagued by terroristic attacks from a nearby neighbor, and a group of rag-tag activist-extremists who can't get along with each other, but are unified against Israel. Not an ideal situation by any stretch of the imagination.

Just a thought, but shouldn't the efforts of Hamas and Hezbollah go into forming the Palestinian nation-state? From the outside looking in, Israel at least is able to govern effectively. I've not seen proof from the arab palestinians that they are capable of that.

Frankly, I'm not sure there is a good, successful, and peaceful resolution to the problem in the mideast. It will take a real change in focus on both sides (but particularly the Palestinians) in order to bring about lasting peace. In my opinion, that's just not gonna happen.

[|BUG| Shamu]

Unfortunate how the root cause of so many deaths, persecutions, personal bias and wars is all because of religious beliefs.

The very thing that is supposed, in most cases, to do the most good has caused the most harm.

[|BUG| Seven]

I rest my case with you.

You don't value human life.

You are way too cynical perhaps maybe you are way too settled being away from the source of the problems and you simply don't care. You were lucky to be born in a rich country. They are unlucky to be born in hell.

I will never justify the killing of innocent people. I won't justify it when Hamas kills and I won't justify it when Israel does.

However comparing Hamas with the force and death Israel can cause it is appalling. Or maybe it is ignorance. Or maybe their propaganda has worked well on you. Killing 100 people in retaliation for 1  has certainly nothing to do with the civilization of freedom or whatever USA and its constitution is so proud of. Or has it?

But maybe after all  USA and Israel are the same thing that's why they are so fond of eachother and support eachothers atrocities.
Israel is doing to Palestinians what US has done to native americans.
No? what is the difference? that native americans werent suicide killers?

In the world I WANT to live, I dont want to see the powerful to crash the less fortunate like roaches without valuing the lives of thousands of innocent people just to kill a few criminals.

If you can watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK1oUVcEzVw and after you still insist on your previous opinion  I am afraid you have lost your humanity.

Its depressing people think like this.
Next time terrorists hit on your door...just say "its just war" and go on with your daily routine.
Thats your advise to the Palestinians, isinit?

 

S.


p.s. there are more than 50 infants and children in the ICUs of the Gaza hospital. Israel has cut off electricity. The fuel  is ending. Their fate is death. But that's only war.
And we are supposed to evolve. Whatever.

[|BUG| Shamu]

I rest my case with you.

What case?

You don't value human life.

But I do, much more than Hamas does.

You are way too cynical perhaps maybe you are way too settled being away from the source of the problems and you simply don't care. You were lucky to be born in a rich country. They are unlucky to be born in hell.

I know I am very lucky to be born in America, Land of the Free

And I do care, I just do not agree with you. That's a big difference.

I will never justify the killing of innocent people. I won't justify it when Hamas kills and I won't justify it when Israel does.

Hmmmm, then why do we only see your passion when it is the Free World doing the killing. Not when Saddam gassed the Kurds, or when Hamas suicide killers target civilians or how about Darfur and Rawanda who practice genocide and force children into being killers?

My guess is because that was not about America or Israel. You have an agenda to find fault with America and it's allies.

However comparing Hamas with the force and death Israel can cause it is appalling. Or maybe it is ignorance. Or maybe their propaganda has worked well on you. Killing 100 people in retaliation for 1  has certainly nothing to do with the civilization of freedom or whatever USA and its constitution is so proud of. Or has it?

It has nothing to do about any 100 to 1 ratio or anything else. Ratio of power is not even an issue. Perhaps Hamas should have given it some thought but not me.

Simple common sense would tell you not to terrorize citizens of a country that has the ability to protect it's citizens with overwhelming power. Israeli's ability to even exist in that environment is dependant on military might and the willingness to use it.

It's not Israels fault that they have bigger guns, it Hamas's mistake for not realizing that simple fact.

But maybe after all  USA and Israel are the same thing that's why they are so fond of eachother and support eachothers atrocities.
Israel is doing to Palestinians what US has done to native americans.
No? what is the difference? that native americans werent suicide killers?

Atrocities? I see none by Israel, it's war started by Hamas and possibly to be finished by Israel. But I grant that in any war atrocities will occur but usually the winner can get away with more than the loser.

The American Indian, it was war with atrocities on both sides. And as in any war "to the victor belong the spoils." Although of late the Indians are doing rather well for themselves. Just look at the shifting boundaries in Europe, things change, in the US the Indians lost.

In the world I WANT to live, I dont want to see the powerful to crash the less fortunate like roaches without valuing the lives of thousands of innocent people just to kill a few criminals.

Karl Marx thought everything could be perfect but Communism has never worked. History and human nature tells you there will always be the powerful and the weak, you just hope the powerful are decent enough to respect the weak........as is the U.S.

If you can watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK1oUVcEzVw and after you still insist on your previous opinion  I am afraid you have lost your humanity.

The video shows the horror of war, it's reality. Perhaps Hamas should have thought of it before they broke the truce.

Also recognize that it being used for the purpose of propoganda, what else would you expect from Rammattan? Something like it should have been shown to the Hamas leaders before they brought these problems on their own population.

Oh, wait a minute, they use children for suicide bombers. To them those children in the video are Martyrs.

Next time terrorists hit on your door...just say "its just war" and go on with your daily routine.
Thats your advise to the Palestinians, isinit?

 

Don't you have things a bit backwards here?

There was a truce, no one knocked on the Palestinians door. Hamas knocked on the Israeli's door and unfortunately for them the Israeli's answered.

p.s. there are more than 50 infants and children in the ICUs of the Gaza hospital. Israel has cut off electricity. The fuel  is ending. Their fate is death. But that's only war.

You are beginning to understand , that is war, to bad Hamas did not understand the suffering they would cause to their people by provoking Israel into retaliation.

Bad Hamas, stupid Hamas, now the people you propose to govern suffer.

[|BUG| K-Man]

Seven - Let me clarify. War is bad. Killing is bad. No question at all in my mind. I knew that before watching the video, and certainly feel the same way after watching the video. This is true whether it's Israel, Palestine, Congo, Kenya, Liberia, the Karen people in Burma, or child soldiers in Africa. It's appalling. It's unfortunately real.

Is the Israeli reaction a bit strong? Perhaps. Is it unprovoked? No. How would I feel about rockets being fired across the Mexican border into US cities and towns? Or how about Macedonia firing rockets into Greek cities and towns near the border? I just do not see how the Palestinians can instigate the violence. It's asking for war, which is asking for killing, which always includes innocent civilians.

Just an observation... breaking the cease-fire was not the brightest thing that Hamas has ever done. This comment is not intended to justify Israel's actions, but it doesn't help their case in the court of public opinion.

Israel may be justified in protecting her people, but there is the question of how this is best accomplished. Based on the history of the situation, I certainly don't pretend to know the answer to that.

I will never justify the killing of innocent people. I won't justify it when Hamas kills and I won't justify it when Israel does.

I can't say I disagree with this statement.

Seven - I do wonder how you would have advised Israel to respond following the rocket attacks? I don't know what the best course of action is in that kind of situation. I'm not of the opinion that pummelling the area is the best option, but I'm also not coming up with any realistically better alternatives.

[Beckett]

Im almost scared to post here but im gonna do it.

Don't worry every one, the leaders of Hamas {the ones that are still alive} promised full victory. The good news is even if they fail, the people will get to die for the glory of Hamas, the leaders they voted into office. The bottom line is don't shoot rockets over borders, and then cry like small girls to the media when you get your arse kicked. Maby they can have their homeland in Iran, they are the ones giving them the rockets. A good thing to remember is that you can only poke the dog witha stick so many times before you get bit. I hold human life in the highest order. All this seems to be self inflicted though. Ive lost to many brothers to send them into battle over something as foolish as this.

I seen this post this morning and have been reading about it on the interent almost all day. (I cant believe how far outta the loop i really am on this). Ive read some very interesting things. like the hamas fireing 200 rockets in 5 days before all this took place and have been doing it on and off for years. "Casualties of war" Yep, and im certian its gonna get alot worse before it get better. As late i see that the media is no longer allowed.

Born American: yep, thats me. and ive paid the price in more ways than one. Ive earned the right to stand proud in the shadows of my forefathers and call myself a son of sam. Now its time for others to take a stand on what they beleive and just how far they will go to set forth a life "they want", Of course without any concern for inoccent life.

Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_ILdI9N_AY

My thoughts,
Brother B

[|BUG| Shamu]

I think Netanyahu pretty much explained why I can understand the Israeli action.

I would also like to think they are making an effort to target military objectives. If civilian casualties occur it is the cost of war. That's not saying there is no sympathy, it is recognizing the reality of war.

I grant there should be compassion for injured civilians but there also needs to be an understanding that war is not pretty, innocents get hurt, including children.

Some oppose the Israeli action because of compassion to the civilians injured. I would ask what is their alternative? They had a truce that was working, Hamas broke the truce, Hamas indiscriminately targeted the Israeli people with rockets, Hamas exposes it's people to retaliation, Hamas is the ruling party of Gaza.

Just what the heck has Israel done that is wrong? What have they done that you and I would not have done to protect our families if our people were being rocketed.

Before all this whining starts about injured civilians there needs to be a hard look at the reality of war. Hamas should have considered it before they started one.

[|BUG| Seven]

I clarify in my posts that I don't take sides.
I am talking about the humanitarian crisis.

But no.. you focus on bad Hamas that throws rockets to poor Israel.
And that justifies throwing bombs inside dencily populated areas killing 100 innocent people for one Hamas terrorists?

You might justify this I DONT.

That is our main difference.

And I would never accept my country doing the same.

Israel has been doing ethnic clearance or genocide for years.
What about all those Jewish brought to Israel to sette in grounds used to belong in Palestine? Some brought from  Ukraine and RUssia are not even Jews anymore!! they are Christians but necessairy new blood to serve in the so needed Israeli army.

Israel hasnt done attrocities? really? Search in Google for Sabra and Shatila.
Yeah have a look...about massacres even the Israelian justice recognized.
But Israel knows how to award murderers of children: Ariel Sharon officially guilty by its OWN country for those massacres voted as primeminister. That explains a lot about the attitude and the mentality of the country of Israel.
Not to mention the common secret of Israel supporting the beginning of Hamas as a counterweight against Arafat's PLO?

So please spare me!  Iran+Hamas follow their own bloody agenda but dont present Israel as the innocent poor country that gets attacked from everyone and only defenses.

As for the attrocities of USA? Ok I will pass on Iraq and how many innocent ppl keep dying there thanks to you. I will pass on Vietnam.

How many countries suffered under USA puppeted Regimes during the Cold War? How many times you collaborated with terrorists to ermm protect your interests? Hey Osama was one of them!
So spare me the ethics lessons. As a super power you have dived deep in shit countless times and screwed up many countries in the proccess.

S.

[|BUG| Seven]

The epitome of hypocricy

"I want us to live in a world where ... we don't have to worry about seeing scenes (on TV) every night for the next 40 years of ethnic cleansing in some part of the world"

"If you don't stand up to brutality and the killing of innocent civilians, you invite them to do more"

"Are we, in the last year of the 20th century, going to look the other way as entire peoples in Europe are forced to abandon their homelands or die, or are we going to impose a price on that kind of conduct and seek to end it"

"Mr. Milosevic often justifies his behavior by talking about the history of the Serbs going back to the 14th century. Well, I value the history of this country, and I value what happened here in the 18th century. But I don't want to take America back to the 18th century, and he acts like he wants to take Serbia back to the 14th century -- to 14th-century values, 14th-century ways of looking at other human beings."

"We are on the edge of a new century and a new millennium where the people in poor countries all over the world, because of technology and the Internet and the spreading of information, will have unprecedented opportunities to share prosperity and to give their kids an education and have a decent future, if only they will live in peace with the basic human regard for other people that is absolutely antithetical to everything that Mr. Milosevic has done."

Bill Clinton, President of USA
parts from various speeches about (justifying) the Kosovo War.


It is nice to see USA's double standards about humanitarian help and care of the innocent (and to be fair it wasn't  only USA, the whole NATO agreed with the attack on Serbia).

Of course the Kosovo War is not the exact same crisis as the Middle east one. But there are huge similarities.
If you replace the KLA (kosovo liberating army) with Hamas and Serbia with Israel you will see many common facts.

KLA was declared a terrorist organization (not by USA) and was provoking Serbia's reaction with attacks in Serbia grounds  that of course gave Serbia  nice reason to start ethnic clearances.
In both cases we have a small minority of ppl seeking independence against a much bigger state.
In both cases the action of paramilitary insurgents was used to provoke the biggest nation.
In both cases the biggest nation using his huge army power attacked the innocent.

That time though, USA and Nato took the side of the weak, of David, not of Goliath using 2 main reasons for their actions: Humanitarian - the ethnic clearance (which even if true was hugely overrated for better propaganda, something like the non-existant WMD in Iraq) and the general peace in the troubled area of the Balkans.

Of course the results are at least controversial.
Kosovo still remains a key point to drug trafficking in Europe, actualy the KLA that was so fondly equiped with ammunition and weapons from USa still is the biggest Drugs trafficking army in Europe.

Kosovo declared independence but only 50+ countrys aknowledged so far. The area is still unstable and nowdays the Kosovars are the ones who do ethnic clearance trying to kick out the remaining Serbians.

So..since USA, NATO etc etc back then cared so much for the luck of the urfotunate minority and supported their terrorists army, why doesnt do the same with the unfortunated Palestinians and their terrorist army?

This selective humanitarian spirit is something else, isinit?

And yes that is our difference, I care for every innocent human being not only the ones that are good for my interests.

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

I clarify in my posts that I don't take sides.

When you try to make a joke add a smiley face or a wink after the comment

Darn bleeding heart Liberals What is to be done about them?