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Author Topic: Libertarians  (Read 3481 times)

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Offline |BUG| DaveRegio

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Libertarians
« on: April 27, 2008, 02:23:46 PM »
Us libertarians need excitement.  ;D :o

Considering the candidates offered by the Republicans and Democrats the Libertarians future must look bright.

I am skeptical of that.  The best chance libertarians have always had is through their natural allies in the Republican party, the traditional, limited-government conservatives, which happened to be the original constituency of the modern conservative movement when it was starting to get its legs.  That constituency has more or less been pushed to the side.  The more dominant strains of conservatism have their roots in the American Left and the idea that governments can accomplish grand things, whether at home or abroad. 

The Libertarian Party will never be able to capitalize on that shift, for reasons both internal and external to it.  Internal because of the internecine squabbles that have seemingly plagued the party from the onset (as well as a general rift amongst libertarians that was never more prominently on display with Ron Paul's newsletters were released - Think Lew Rockwell v. The Cato Institute) and external because the percentage of people who hold broadly libertarian or even traditionally conservative views is not all that big these days.   To give my last point a bit of reference, how many Goldwater conservatives do people know? 

If the impact of libertarians was felt in the 2006 mid-term elections, it was many of them did not turn out to support The Republican Party.  They either switched sides or stayed home.  That, with perhaps a few other factors, caused the Dems to regain control of Congress (IMO).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 09:51:50 PM by |BUG| Seven »

Offline |BUG| Shamu

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Re: Libertarians
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 12:04:22 PM »
Perhaps the Federalists need to make a comeback ;)

(Too much John Adams in my TV viewing)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 09:52:21 PM by |BUG| Seven »

Offline |BUG| DaveRegio

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Libertarians
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 05:52:02 PM »
Perhaps the Federalists need to make a comeback ;)

(Too much John Adams in my TV viewing)

I hear that was a great series and the portrayal was fantastic.  I think there's a line in there where he mentions that he will always be remembered for signing The Alien and Sedition Act.  For that reason, I don't know if I'd want the Federalists anywhere near the government, although they'd probably be better than what we have now.

I have more of a Madison and/or Jefferson streak in me. :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 09:53:14 PM by |BUG| Seven »

Offline |BUG| Shamu

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Re:Libertarians
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2008, 11:35:40 AM »
By saying the Federalists I was implying you would have a party you could clearly disagree with on the issues at hand.

The current Republican / Democrat parties are diluted in their positions because of attempts at mass appeal instead of a political philosophy.

But, I suppose that is politics when you are dependant on the vote....tell the voters what they want to hear, not what you think.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 09:53:46 PM by |BUG| Seven »

Offline |BUG| Seven

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Re: Libertarians
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2008, 09:56:59 PM »
moved this very interesting topic in this forum that's why all posts seem to have been edited by me.

or I just censored them ALL! bouahahhhaahhhhaahhaaaaa <very evil laugh>

S.

I've never been clever, because need it never.

Offline |BUG| Shamu

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Re: Libertarians
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 01:11:26 PM »
Okay, let's see if we can fire Dave up a bit.

And this is from the silent majority type who does not really follow politics but only casually observes the goings on when something peaks my interest.

With regard to the libertarians I think internally they are their own biggest problem, they cannot seem to unite to form a solid front of an organization to be taken seriously.

They have done little to promote public image and are little more than an afterthought to the average voter. Ask the man on the street about the Libertarians and he will know VERY litlle about them or their ideals.

On the personal side, and this does not include Dave who I only know through forum posts, I have met 3 live Libertarians and I really thought they were whack jobs. Not because they were Libertarians but because they were strange and unusual individuals. Let's say I would not go out and have a beverage of choice with them.

I do like some of the libertarians phiplosophy about letting individuals be more responsible for their own lives. In fact if you went back to the basic argument over our separation from Britain it would seem the Libetarians are closer to the original freedoms we fought for than the Democrats or Republicans of today.

The Libertarians problem is one of image, not too many know who they are, what they stand for or who represents them. Until they develop more of a public presence they will continue to be a very week third party.

Heck, even Ralph Nader is better known.

Edited for exceptionally poor grammar :(
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 05:04:37 PM by |BUG| Shamu »

Offline |BUG| DaveRegio

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Re:Libertarians
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2008, 12:51:08 PM »
I'll get an answer up soon.

Sorry for the delay.

Offline |BUG| DaveRegio

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Re: Libertarians
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2008, 03:30:23 PM »
Shamu,

First of all, your experiences would not surprise me.  Libertarianism as a political philosophy embraces a rather diverse set of views ranging from the classical liberalism of people like John Locke, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to a philosphy of a very minimal state (i.e Robert Nozick, Ayn Rand) to the idea that governments are illegitimate entities and that legal systems, justice, services, etc. are best handled through private providers.  Also known as anarcho-capitalism, if you have encountered people who hold these views (or read the pages of LewRockwell.com), it would not surprise me that you would find those views on the fringe because they are.

I am familiar with all these viewpoints and I would have to say that I am clearly in the classically liberal camp although I do hold some views toward legitimate roles of government that would put me closer to people like Rand or Nozick.  You are right about the ideals this nation was founded on, as they are completely consistent with the classical liberal view on our natural rights as free men.  This is embodied both in the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution, neither of which seem to be taken seriously by just about everyone on the Left and substantial portions of the Right.

Most of the more mainstream libertarians (broadly defined as socially liberal but economic conservative) do not belong to the Libertarian Party but  have historically operated within the big tent of the GOP, although that may be changing as the big-government elements of the American Right, whether the neoconservatives, the so-called national greatness conservatives, moral majority types, etc. have wielded significant influence.  Combine that with a big government President and you have a giant headache.  It probably wouldn't surprise you that many of the ideas that now wield influence on the Right are from people who were formerly leftists.

Regarding libertarian unity: there will never be any.  Ron Paul's candidacy exposed (for all of those who were paying attention), the very deep rift between the more mainstream libertarians who try to work with the Washington establishment through the Republican Party (i.e think tanks like The Cato Institute) and the anti-state libertarians who have little interest in political machinery and believe that the state is evil and want to get it out of as many things as human possible, more than what could ever be considered achievable.  This rift goes back to 1982 when The Cato Institute pushed out the more radical libertarians and went with more of a mainstream approach.

Because of the more radical elements of libertarians is very anti-government in nature, it attacts a very toxic mix of constituencies amongst what the fringe groups on the Far Right (neoconservatives and the Religious Right, for lack of a better term, hardly qualify as far right - I'd argue them as left of center).  Neo-confederates, southern agrarians (i.e. paleoconservatives), Birch-type conspiracy theory nuts and just about every crackpot under the sun that think Jews run our banking system would find common ground with these people (although NOT with people like me).  As a general rule of thumb, if the group in question was effectively marginalized by Bill Buckley when he was conceptualizing what became the modern conservative movement, these guys were reaching out to them.  You'll find many of these kooks hovering over the Libertarian Party, all the more reason not to take them seriously.

Now, onto our many problems:

Our biggest problem isn't one of unity, it's one of ideas.  I'll throw a few of them out there.  After a while, I think people will understand why a relatively small percentage of the population hold views similar to this: 

- We believe in an expansive private sphere, robust private property rights and that government's sole purpose is to protect them.

- We advocate constitutionally limited government that demands Congress be limited to its enumerated powers and that the broad protections of liberty, especially to those rights not enumerated in the Constitution but recognized in the 9th and 14th Amendments be vigilantly enforced by the Supreme Court.

- We believe that it is not "activist judges who legislate from the bench" (a monstrosity of a talking point if there ever was one) that pose the greatest threat to liberty, it is the sort of legislative factions that James Madison warned us of in Federalist 10.  History  has proven him right.

-  We are skeptical of social engineering and central planning.  The New Deal produced nothing but a massive entitlement program (Social Security), a modern regulatory state and the misguided notion that government tinkering can fix problems, an intellectual problem that haunts us to this day (especially since the New Deal was a government "fix" to a problem government itself caused in the first place while trying to "fix" other problems).  It should also be noted that The Great Society did not produce one.  The War on Drugs has done nothing to curb drug and everything to infringe upon the rights of individuals who are not violating the rights of others.  Time will tell whether or not our plans to democratize Iraq will bear the fruit the planners insisted would be a cakewalk.  All I can say about that is that our history in nation building is mixed at best.

- The fact that we believe that a welfare state is nothing more than taking from one group and giving it another through law (in any other context, it's called theft) does not mean we lack compassion for those in need of assistance.  We believe charity as a purely private matter.

- Capitalism may be imperfect and produce inequalities and unjust outcomes but there is no other system that can correct those results. Blaming "failures" on the free market (or laissez faire capitalism) is often misguided because it is government intervention that often exacerbation problems.  For example, it was not a failure of the free market that caused The Great Depression, the government 1) tightened credit when it should have expanded it; 2) imposed protectionist tariffs that did a lot of damage to our economy; and 3) raised income taxes on certain levels rather harshly.

- We believe in equality before the law.  In that, the purpose of the law is to protect the rights of individuals so they can pursue happiness in the manner of their choosing so long as those actions do not violate the rights of other individuals.  It is not the role of government to, among other things, dictate a minimum wage, dictate a maximum number of hours an adult can work, dictate "reasonable" maximum profits levels, give labor unions a government protected cartel, regulate consensual behavior in the bedroom, regulate consensual behavior in the boardroom, protect institutions from a perceived harm that cannot be measured, quantified or even alluded to and is simply a matter of one's very subjective opinion (i.e. marriage), etc. etc.

I think you probably get the idea.  You can pretty much disqualify the Left as agreeing with any of the views on matters of economics.  Their views on social issues are rather morally authoritarian once you get them beyond their rather selective definition of privacy.  Conservatives, generally, are more skeptical of government but would exercise far more power locally than libertarians would find acceptable (some of the conservative insistence that we defer to the Executive in times of crisis is a bit of a sore spot but that's a whole other discussion).  Also, the hostility towards judges is rather ironic since it was judges deferring to the will of the majority that expanded government to the state it's in today.

Polls have put the libertarian "persuasion" (social liberal/economic conservative) somewhere in the 10% range.  On that note, we certainly have enough of a presence to at least matter, but our allegiance has traditionally been under the rubric of the Republican Party and away from the more doctrinairre and radical libertarians that you seem to have come across.

If I had my choice, I'd jettison all of the big government types out of the Republican Party, send them back to the Left where they belong and try to peacefully coexist with the more traditionalist wing of the conservative movements, whose similarities with me on the scope of the federal government make us natural allies.

Sorry so long...

Offline |BUG| Shamu

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Re: Libertarians
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2008, 05:20:20 PM »
 :o

No problem being long but it will take a blue collar, high school educated NRA member like myself awhile to digest.

But oddly enough I think I argree with much of the Libetarian view as you explain it. However I still think the Libertarian view is still debated within it's own constituents, and until they can form a resemblance of unity they will have a recognition problem.

Also not that my opinion of the Libertarians I met had nothing to do with their political views, they were simply whack jobs IMHO.

- "We believe in an expansive private sphere, robust private property rights and that government's sole purpose is to protect them."

I like that one, if someone breaks into my house I could shoot them and not be the one going to jail ;)

Another thing you point out is the impact of our judicial system. Between Judges and Lawyers I am not sure who is the biggest threat to personal freedom. Better to go back to Hamilton and Burr style than our current system especially with regard to civil issues.

Oh well, to deep a topic for me anyway, you need Feltan to match wits with.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 06:41:05 PM by |BUG| Shamu »

Offline |BUG| DaveRegio

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Re: Libertarians
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 07:21:15 PM »
Shamu,

Gun control laws annoy me.  If lawful citizens wish to own assault rifles with high capacity magazines and discharge them in a way that does not pose any threat to anyone, then I have little interest in regulating that conduct.  I've never understood how people have ever been able to look someone in the eye and tell them how they should best defend themselves.  It's arrogant.  Your right to defend yourself in no way violates my rights so what gives me the authority to impose my views on you?

Your liberty comes first.  If your life and liberty is threatened and you deem it necessary to separate the attacker from his head, so be it.  I don't think that if I were in the same situation I'd be too worried about rehabilitating that person.

I don't know if I agree with you on libertarian unity.  I think unity would be a problem if we were a large enough constituency to accomplish anything on our own and couldn't get out of our own collective way (did I just say collective?  eek!); however, we need more people before that becomes a problem.

I still contend that the greatest threat is from legislators, followed by an executive who rubberstamps "the will of the people" followed by judges who refuse to overturn democratically-elected laws.

Offline |BUG| Drago

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Re: Libertarians
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2008, 05:24:14 PM »
Ummm..
I know this is kinda resurrecting the dead post but I was out of touch for awhile...so sue me.

Hi, I'm Chad, and I'm a libertarian.
which only confirms Shamu's concept that all libertarians are Whackos and Nutjobs.

I am not as fancy in my analysis as Dave Regio is, however I am reasonably well read in my own right. I am radically anti-politally correct though.

In short I believe people may worship their mysterious space gods in whatever nutjob way they please and if they wish to go hide in the dessert of the southwest and marry each others daughters, then go ahead...Those that think the Government has a place freeing these Poor Abused females from bondage at gunpoint, should ask if their values or churches are BATF approved? Or should perhaps have asked these aforementioned females who were often happier than the ones trying to free them...

If they wish boys to marry boys, I really couldn't care less...

If you are old or sick and would prefer to die rather than live in pain, well I can help you buddy. Its no less than my family has handled internally since the days of the Vikings...

I believe in helping others and have actually put my money and my time into doing it, regardless of them getting themselves into their pathetic situations, but when any government takes money I have earned from working, at gunpoint (try not paying taxes), to distribute to crackheads who steal, then this injustice should be resisted and actively opposed by all good men.

We now are faced with a Republic (america is not a democracy since only citizens are allowed to vote, dumbasses...) who arrests and holds people without charge and without limit on oftentimes no evidence, who eavesdrops on anyone at any time and breaks its own laws with impunity. When this rabidly anti-american bill called the "patriot act" was signed every man of principal who swore an oath to "uphold and defend the constition of the United States of America..." should have risen up in outrage and refused this travesty that strips all remaining power out of our already shredded constitution...
Yet, where was the outcry?
Where were the soldiers, the Marines, the police?
where were all those like myself, who have sworn our lives to protect the constitution?

There is a reason some old vets and some young vets become recluses and are disgusted by our government and those who are good, brave men in all other matters, however somehow hold this ignorant faith in the lie that we need a bloated federal system to protect us and guarantee our liberties. In reality we are sliding rapidly into a truly dangerous historical pattern that must make us all question if we really are the good guys any longer, and if our cause is really all that just anymore.

I, like my father before me, have knowingly went into harms way for this grand dream called America.

I, like my father before me, am sickened by the sheeplike complacency of a people too comfortable and uneducated to realize that it is not a government loaded with cowardly beaurocrats that protects them, but the brotherhood of good men, willing to actively work towards the betterment of the whole, protecting one another if needed, and willing to fight to be free, and defend those that cannot defend themselves that made this country great once.
Such men are in short supply as of late.
I fear for my country's future as I fear for her very soul and spirit.

Chad...

Drago...

By any name, still a man in a world of sheep. But grateful for my friends, whatever politics they espouse.

Do Not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons; For You Are Crunchy, and Good With Ketchup...