Topic: Hot Button Issues

[|BUG| Seven]

My point is that the citizens of the biggest superwpower of the world should have the responsibility to be informed, act, vote and decide more about their own future and the future of the world. Not just listening to the lies of their president and accept go to war without reasons. 

S.

The point I was making is not about who cares the most but who is informed the best. I still think citizens of the US are far better informed than those of other countries.

What they do with that information and how they choose to use or express it is also their choice.

What do you want to see? A revolution because one party was in power and was able to exercise it's influence? Not gonna happen.

Even now with the Democrats controlling the House and Senate it's still difficult to implement change, it takes time.

Recently the Democrats tried to tie funding for the intervention in Iraq to a set date for withdrawl of troops. Did not happen, they do not yet have the votes to overide a presidential veto.

However much of this activity may set the stage for the next election. With a significant change things may happen.

Also keep in mind how a democratic form of government works, change is very slow, action is slow, we do not have a dictator who can just make something happen immediately.

And while you find fault with the US also keep in mind we are, much to my regret, the largest provider of foreign aid in the world.

Yesterday Bush committed 30 BILLION $$'s to Aids research   , I hate even thinking how much of that goes overseas.

Better spent on our own senior citizens, health care, poor and military.

And yes, I was jesting, but with a hint of truth. No one likes the big guy on the block, it's just a simple rule of life.

I expect to see more ppl voting than this 59% and more people to care and participate. I don't understand how you claim you are better informed.And you avoid to answer my true question which is how many of the American have a clue of whats going on?
I think that the vast majority of US citizens have no clue. If they had, they wouldnt accept this war that easily Shamu. They would show their disagreement. They would protest. This is what you are supposed to do when something wrong is happening, even if the guilty side is your own country.

Nowdays that they have realised (dunno how many) that this war was a mistake they want their troops back and Bush's popularity has reached really small figures.

Mind you, the whole "care argument" is about being informed and having a voice and act. Not about caring for your fellow humans. It's noble to give and help but you shouldnt ruin it by starting wars or being indifferent about your country's actions. All the progress made so far in this world never would have done from people who would only care for themselves.

We tend to live in our little worlds and we dont give a shait what happens beyond us..not at least till a terrorist blows us into pieces and reminds us that there is cause and effect and the world is not ours.
And this is a universal problem, not only american, but the latest affects the fates of the rest of all of us nowdays so its even more important.

S.

[|BUG| Desert Eagle]

It's interesting that (ex) militairy us ppl answer the same way... "there are things you don't know about this Iraq war so accept it and get done with it". But we are not in the militairy where soldiers should always obay orders without asking why.

My point was that American Soldiers are doing more than just killing the enemy.
 

We are entitled to know everything about wars since it also affect us but mostly cause in a free world you just can't start wars like that, without at least informing the rest of the international community about the true reasons behind your actions.

When it comes to war "we" are not entitled to know everything.  Knowing everything could jeopardize lives.

And at the end if you had valid reasons to start it then why hide them under the lies of WMD?
We can't just accept rivers of bloods to shed with the excuse of some top secret we are not supposed to know. And think the  preceding is given to justify more future wars?

I never said I supported the war, but I will support the American Military always.  I live in a country not conquered by an invading Army becuase of the American Military.

As for terrorism, there was none in Iraq untill you occupied it. Now Iraq is the biggest Al Queida reasoning for recruitment. If USA really knew something about Iraq involvment why not share it with the rest of us?
I am sure that if US had proves about Iraq and terrorism it would use it as a stronger card to start this war instead of the invisible massive destruction weapons.
USA used the terrorism excuse to invade Afganistan and most of the world didnt really opposed to this decision.

As I said, better to kill the enemy in Southwest Asia instead of the Shores of the USA. 

As for being the only super power.  When will the rest of the world decide to step up to the "plate" and lead by example?
 
S.

p.s. A little disclaimer, since misunderstandings have happened in the past:
I am not an antiamerican, at least I don't think I am. What really makes me furious is having the only superpower left (USA) to act like a mindless bully, creating more troubles to iself and the rest of the world. And the impression I get is that American citizens are not informed or are misinformed about the whole situation and they are manupilated to show/prove their patriotism by defending blindly the actions of their dangerous goverment.

I or others do not support our government blindly.  Our government has worked pretty good for the last 200 years or so.  Our fore-fathers have ensured alot of checks in balances so that the US will always be a free.  Did you every thing that others are not informed or miss-informed?
 
I stil love ya seven.

[|BUG| Shamu]

Seven, one difficulty that you seem not to be aware of is that in the US we are often provided way too much information. Freedom of the press and our own politicians are often much more harm than good.

Many American lives have been lost thanks to our free press and persons seeking political gain.

I also think that the dialogue taking place in the US against counter productive and costing American lives. It's just like Vietnam, they know if they hang on we will eventually quit.

You seem to think the war is being ignored, it's not, you are simply not here to have any idea of what is happening. In fact I would go so far as to say you are mis-informed or have a predjudicial opinion.

And then there comes the saying "good news is no news". Much like Eagle said many of the good things we do in Iraq and elsewhere in the world are not news worthy.

We are first in financial aid, first in response to world disasters, first in charitable contributions but that stuff barely gets recognized.

For Greece...look up the Marshall Plan. I have not looked if Greece is currently receiving financial aid.

We even helped opposing governments when disaster struck......we could talk about how all markings that the aid came from the US were removed but thats for another day.

The UN would have ceased to exist long ago except for support from the US.

We are also the expected military guru when men and arms are needed. Seems it's alright to take American lives and money simply depending on ones point of view.

Do you dislike the U.S? I suspect you do, but I also expect much of it is because you are not informed.

This may also be treading on dangerous ground but I am not bashful about my politiacal point of view. I am a Conservative, I tend to vote Republican but my vote is based on individuals and not party.

I have never voted a straight ticket.

Yes, I voted for Bush. And if Kerry were the opponent I would do so again. If Hilary Clinton is the Democratic nominee in the next election I can almost assure you I will again vote Republican regardless of the Republican candidate nominated.

Now, what is your political inclination? Bleeding heart liberal I already know Most likely most of this is because of different political views.

[|BUG| Seven]

Seven, one difficulty that you seem not to be aware of is that in the US we are often provided way too much information. Freedom of the press and our own politicians are often much more harm than good.

Many American lives have been lost thanks to our free press and persons seeking political gain.

I also think that the dialogue taking place in the US against counter productive and costing American lives. It's just like Vietnam, they know if they hang on we will eventually quit.

You seem to think the war is being ignored, it's not, you are simply not here to have any idea of what is happening. In fact I would go so far as to say you are mis-informed or have a predjudicial opinion.

And then there comes the saying "good news is no news". Much like Eagle said many of the good things we do in Iraq and elsewhere in the world are not news worthy.

We are first in financial aid, first in response to world disasters, first in charitable contributions but that stuff barely gets recognized.

For Greece...look up the Marshall Plan. I have not looked if Greece is currently receiving financial aid.

We even helped opposing governments when disaster struck......we could talk about how all markings that the aid came from the US were removed but thats for another day.

The UN would have ceased to exist long ago except for support from the US.

We are also the expected military guru when men and arms are needed. Seems it's alright to take American lives and money simply depending on ones point of view.

Do you dislike the U.S? I suspect you do, but I also expect much of it is because you are not informed.

This may also be treading on dangerous ground but I am not bashful about my politiacal point of view. I am a Conservative, I tend to vote Republican but my vote is based on individuals and not party.

I have never voted a straight ticket.

Yes, I voted for Bush. And if Kerry were the opponent I would do so again. If Hilary Clinton is the Democratic nominee in the next election I can almost assure you I will again vote Republican regardless of the Republican candidate nominated.

Now, what is your political inclination? Bleeding heart liberal I already know Most likely most of this is because of different political views.

Now lets see...

the Marshal plan..sure..I also remember the CIA interference in the abolishment of democracy in Greece and the support of the Greek Dictatorship  that among other things (actions you have officially apologized for to the greek ppl)

Giving humanitarian aid..sure, is that before or after you have used your war mashine to destroy the infrastructure of countries you then offered to rebuilt (making some more construction corporates richier)?
And how exactly you choose your aid "targets"? the 1million of the slaughtered people in Rwanda..poor bastards no oil in their poor country to get your help.Who cares about Africa? Let them all die.

Helping goverments and nations, before or after you have helped or even established resumes and bloodthirsty dictators  so they can preserve your interests in their areas (Saddam Hussein anyone? Pinoset? etc etc etc)?

War against terrorism, before or after you created them and then you couldn't control them (talibans)

I can go and and go on for the USA crimes against humanity. ANd you can go on about the goods USA offered to the world and it will end a tie.

The difference is  I can see both. You see I don't live in USA.  I am sure you are proud of being American but you can't or you don't want to see your country's dark side. Maybe is a falce way of patriotism maybe this is what patriotism is about.

That is not me. I love the good side of my country but I also regognise the many faults of it, maybe I even try to change some things, I dunno. But Greece is not a super power, its almost a 3rd world country with a rich ancient history. Great past but weak present and a very uncertain future. That's the truth, I aint gonna hide behind patriotism and stories on how much Greece has once offered to the civilization or how bravely fought in WWII or how it won the soccer championship.


And to end with the  Iraqi war ,this country is suffering and it doesnt have you to thank. And this kind of tragedy the american people should had prevented from happening. At the end its your responsibility to stop your great country from creating more mayhem.  And when I see the Americans to behave like this I want to believe they don't know, they are misinformed. I dare not to believe the majority of american people really supported actions like the iraqi disaster. It's even worse to think they don't really care.

S.

[|BUG| Seven]

oh, I dunno if I am liberal I remember in one test about political tastes I came between far left  from liberals, anarchy and Ghandi! go figure! 

But I certainly dont vote for conservatives. I don't think concervatives can bring progress. Anyway its of course personal beliefs and choices and I am not sure I could explain in english (or even in greek hahahahah).
Must say hanging around with the FS and the BUGs gave me a very interesting insight about Americans. I certainly don't deslike them..not all anyway, I am still here no? And I can reassure you I am not a masochist

oh and DE, feelings are mutual dear  but the iraqi war is stupid! nah nah nah nah nahhhhh 

S.

[|BUG| Shamu]

but the iraqi war is stupid! nah nah nah nah nahhhhh 

S.

You know what, it's not even a war now. It's more like a police action.

That's where I have difficulty, we should have just kicked ass, got our troops out and lend support to the closest thing you can find to a political allie.

Staying there trying to impose a democratic government on people with historical religious differences is a lost cause.

Our government may work here but we should not impose it on others.

[|BUG| Desert Eagle]

Now lets see...

the Marshal plan..sure..I also remember the CIA interference in the abolishment of democracy in Greece and the support of the Greek Dictatorship  that among other things (actions you have officially apologized for to the greek ppl)

See the Evil American War Machine knows how to apologize for its action and attempt to make things right. But then again we suppported Iraq during its 8 year war with Iran.

Giving humanitarian aid..sure, is that before or after you have used your war mashine to destroy the infrastructure of countries you then offered to rebuilt (making some more construction corporates richier)?
And how exactly you choose your aid "targets"? the 1million of the slaughtered people in Rwanda..poor bastards no oil in their poor country to get your help.Who cares about Africa? Let them all die.

Did you know we have troops in Rwanda? Not mowing anyone down with their weapons either. They are actually stationed all over Africa, most providing clean drinking water and medical supplies.  Not all soldiers carry weapons.  For every one soldier that carries a weapon into combat there are 5 soldiers supporting that soldier, rendering aid to the enemy, etc.. Yes we actually medical take care of those that just a minute ago where trying to kill us.

Helping goverments and nations, before or after you have helped or even established resumes and bloodthirsty dictators  so they can preserve your interests in their areas (Saddam Hussein anyone? Pinoset? etc etc etc)?

Nobody is perfect, not the American government or any government for that matter.  We have done pretty well though.

War against terrorism, before or after you created them and then you couldn't control them (talibans)

Actually the russians created the Taliban with there invasion back in the early 80s.  Yes we did back the Taliban against the Russians.  Why you may ask? Same reasons the Russians and Chineses backed the governments of North Korea and Vietnam during those conflicts.

I can go and and go on for the USA crimes against humanity. ANd you can go on about the goods USA offered to the world and it will end a tie.

Sorry would have to disagree since we provide 80% of the funding for United Nations and most of its humnaity based programs. As I stated earlier stilling waiting for another country besides Britain to step up to the plate with leading the Free World.  Let me see...Russia, China, France, Germany, Spain, have all contributing materail and manpower to countries that should not have nuclear weapons help get them.

The difference is  I can see both. You see I don't live in USA.  I am sure you are proud of being American but you can't or you don't want to see your country's dark side. Maybe is a falce way of patriotism maybe this is what patriotism is about.

Now you see there is a big difference.  8 days ago my neighbors house burnt down.  I was moving anyway to a new neighbor. So guess what evil thing I did. I am selling my house to them for 1/2 of what it really is worh, so that they can stay in the same neighbor as their family.  Americans no all to well the Darkside of thier own country. Far to easy to show the "evil" Americans on TV then the "good" Americans.  Also one must remeber their are close to 6 billion people in the world and the majority of them are good people. Even the majority of Americans. Here is another fact of us evil Americans, in fact I posted in on this very sight just the other day: Hero Miles Program,

Have any frequent flyer miles gathering dust?  Why not donate them to fisherhouse.org. for a good cause,

So far With your support, the Fisherhouse has provided nearly 10,000 tickets to Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom hospitalized service members and their families, worth more than $12 million (average savings per ticket is currently about $1,300).

I donate nearly 9,000 miles this morning to the cause. You can find out more here:
FISHERHOUSE

I could have used those miles for a trip to Europe, instead I was evil along with the others that have donated $12 million worth of airline tickets to those that needed more.

That is not me. I love the good side of my country but I also regognise the many faults of it, maybe I even try to change some things, I dunno. But Greece is not a super power, its almost a 3rd world country with a rich ancient history. Great past but weak present and a very uncertain future. That's the truth, I aint gonna hide behind patriotism and stories on how much Greece has once offered to the civilization or how bravely fought in WWII or how it won the soccer championship.

Greece, 1,000s of years old
United States of America, A little more than 200 years old.  You have buildings in your country that have been around longer then America.  We are young and still growing, and at times I think the world does not like the new kid on the block.  I can bet though I can take the American flag to anywhere in the world and people would recoginze it even if they hated.  How many other countries can do that?

And to end with the  Iraqi war ,this country is suffering and it doesnt have you to thank. And this kind of tragedy the american people should had prevented from happening. At the end its your responsibility to stop your great country from creating more mayhem.  And when I see the Americans to behave like this I want to believe they don't know, they are misinformed. I dare not to believe the majority of american people really supported actions like the iraqi disaster. It's even worse to think they don't really care.

If Saddam would not have been in power in Iraq, this current civil war would have happened long ago.  Reminds me of Bonsina, soon as the Russians were gone civil war broke out, and oh yeah, who still has troops in Bonsina ensuring the peace and footing the majority of the UN money in Bonsina, the evil US.  Yes the majority of Americans do not support the actions of the US and Iraq.  I myself do not, but I do support American troops though.


On another note Seven, my sons are going to a Greek Orthdox Church every sunday with their best friend.  And did you know some of the Greek Americans in my hometown are some of the nicest people in town and also have own some of the best resturants.  My point?  America is made up from people from every corner of the earth, even Greece..

Hot Button Issues to hot for me..

[|BUG| Shamu]

While we may not be perfect we sure must be doing something right.

The US remains the most attractive country for immigration.

Very few people leave the US for other countries and many that do are retirees just looking a retirement location.

Our system is democratic, we have freedom of the press, individual freedoms are significant, to the point of possibly being harmful to ourselves.

And why the heck should we committ our soldiers if there is not an economic or political benefit to the US? We should not have to be the worlds babysitter. Rawanda? I don't care about Rwanda. I did not care about Somalia.

Somalia was a hard lesson learned, stay the heck out and let them kill each other rather than us. What the heck do I care if they are killing each other over political or tribal differences in Africa.

The only reason to committ troops would be to insure the security of our form of government, economic benefit or survival, not humanitarian reasons.

For humanitarian reasons leave it to the UN and their budget but do not committ our soldiers to police duties. A few well placed rockets would be acceptable

We also have an additional responsibilty to our allies. Much to my regret Israel is one example.

BTW......my charitable contributions exceeded $5,000.00 last year but they were selected by me. I should add none went to a church.

Add in how much of my tax dollars goes overseas in financial aid and the figures we provide to the world are more than generous. In fact if I am  not mistaken the US is rated as the most charitable country in the world. Those numbers are out there somewhere.

Added: Old link.
http://usinfo.state.gov/scv/Archive/2005/May/10-192837.html

[|BUG| Seven]

I think my writing style didnt let you understand what I am debating about. Instead you write defending your country's actions and try to prove you are not evil.

My whole point its not to prove how evil America is, but to show you there isnt just "you are with us or against us".
I find it a bit funny DE trying to prove me he is not evil ..cause I know he is  .

Trying to say it in a nutshell: you should try and see a bit beyond your love for your country and your patriotism cause even if USA is a superpower it can and has done things that have harmed the world a lot. You can see the humanitarian help and how great you are, a poor bastard in Iran has to remember  how much he suffered under the Shah dictatorship that was made and supported by USA. There are always 2 sides and its not that clear what side is the good one.

It's not as simple as "we are the good guys and all the rest the bad ones". I also tried to show you how other nations see and interpret your actions. It's not antiamericanism or jealoucy not to like US  aggressive politics leading to bloodsheds or enviromental problems etc etc etc.
And since you are the "leaders of the free world" and your actions have such impact to everyone of us, you should always try to be well informed, active, have the feeling of responsibility  and not following blind patriotism.

And the latest should be followed by all ppl in every country whatever impact this country might have in the international issues.
Blaming USA all the time for bad politics/actions it's a very convenient thing to do.

Seven

[|BUG| K-Man]

So is it perhaps a bit of a "pick your poisen" kind of dilemna?

I agree; not all the effects of any country's actions are good. And recent history shows this is very true of the US actions as well.

IMHO, there is no "perfect" decision and all will have collateral damage. I don't like that and am not entirely sure where to go with that conclusion.

[Beckett]

Immagration,
 Since i work construction, I see alot of "differant" people show up in the states for the construction season. Usually paid in cash from there employers. The money is save and taken home with them at the end of the construction season. What the money is used for after that is another story. I see this as tax free money leaveing the states. Maybe im jelous because almost half my check goes to pay union dues, taxes, medical fees ect. I find it quite irratating, and there are still people in te the states that dont have a job due to lack of work. Some well placed sniper towers might be the sulution to this, but it could also lead us down a differant path. Sooner or later the immagrants are gonna shoot back. Maybe the "great wall" is more appopriate.
I dont know but something should be done to keep things safe at home.

The War,
In any war good guy or bad guy doesnt matter. Theres always gonna be "finger pointing". When this all started who couldnt see that comeing. The US as a super power will always look like we are sticking our noses into things thats none of our buisness. With war theres death, there are no winners. The troops should be pulled out and they should be able to police themselves. The WMD i think was just an excuse to get in the front door and try to change a bad situtation for others to something better. Judgeing from the gas prices it isnt doing the US any good. We are setting up our youth for the raised economy in future years. Oopps, i got off track. The war happened and has caused alls lives to change. Hopefully for the better. I hope lives werent lost for nothing.
I was not aware the US culture was being enforced over there. If so i dont agree with that.

Good read here, Im not a very politacal person, but its nice to see all the differant views of everyone.

Beckett

[|BUG| Drago]

I understand when people say its good to save everyone and help others and all this stuff.
I do really agree with it on a personal level.
personally I have done more than most would believe.

However on a National Level, I would much prefer to be able to keep my tax money and let the Israeli's handle their own problems.
Same goes for poor starving people all round the world. Learn to manage what you got or appeal directly to individuals. it is the job and ONLY purpose of a government to provide for its own citizens who pay to support it.

there are lots of non-governmental charities out there for all the rest.
I am paying a coupla thousand per month now trying to catch up for this tax year to the Infernal Revenue Service.
I had to come up with nearly seven thousand to pay those bloodthirsty dogs off so they can give it away and waste it instead of doing squat for the citizens of our own country.

When you withhold income from your paycheck it does not hurt as bad as when you hold the cash in your hand and realize what a chunk of money you worked to earn goes to stupid, half-assed, useless, and wasteful crap around the world.

My heart feels for the poor bastards in Rwanda/Iraq/Ethiopia/mexico/etc... but above what I may donate to help them directly BY MY CHOICE, they can solve their own problems for awhile.

Pull our military back. Disband most of the branches. they are overlapping and redundant at this point. Arm and train the citizenry as this country was originally designed to be set up. It does not take nearly the bloated military we have now to defend this country. Its become a hammer in the hands of bloated, twisted, old men in select circles of power who have fantasies of being great conquerers; or who make huge amounts of money from the existing Military Industrial Complex. 

War Profiteering is a crime. It should be looked at as a disgrace, instead of "supported" at the exclusion of sense.

Quit taxing the working class and small business owners into oblivion to pay for exotic crap that really does not directly improve our lives.

PS
cannot afford to replace my computer right now cause friggin IRS is taking all my money for awhile. Rats. Miss you all.

[|BUG| Shamu]

PS
cannot afford to replace my computer right now cause friggin IRS is taking all my money for awhile. Rats. Miss you all.

Actually Drago you may be into sound financial planning. You should always owe them at the end of the year. That means you held their money for free.

If you get a refund it means they were holding your money.....not good financial planning.

IMHO, ideally I will owe less than one weeks pay when my taxes are computed.

PS: Of course this depends on some personal discipline in saving your money through the year.

[|BUG| Drago]

its still just plain thievery, I tell you. Thievery.

actually financially this old dragon is not so dumb as he may appear.
Just this year was first year on my own as Avionics Contractor and...well...the best laid plans of mice and Dragons...sometimes go splat.

I owe it all to Dave Ramsey.   
www.daveramsey.com

try it, you may like it.

[|BUG| K-Man]

So we have a Dave Ramsey fan in our midst? Cool. I've enjoyed listening to his show on the weekends, and think his philosophy is sound. It's actually rather refreshing I think.
I finally bought The Total Money Makeover and am working my way through it. Time to put the money to work and know where it is than to keep on coasting!