Topic: Hot Button Issues

[|BUG| Shamu]

One of our members had noted that the forums had been rather quiet.

Perhaps a little discussion of controversial topics to liven things up?

How about Immigration?

This topic is not solely limited to the United States but is also a hot button item in Germany and England.

Personally I support VERY strict immigration laws but also recognize that, at least in the US, the economy could be negatively effected if illegal immigrants were deported.

That said I hope any compromise includes payment of past taxes, a clean record, and some form of financial penalty.

Don't even get me started about the babies born here of illegal immigrants becoming citizens.

[|BUG| Cobra_9]

Babies becoming citizens...?......crap, how about immigrants getting welfare and social security when some of our own LEGAL citizens can't. Heck, if the Mexicans want to be Americans then why don't we just annex Mexico and make it our 51st state? We need to be able to make the border impregnable....how else are we to guard against terrorists coming into the country thru Mexico?
  Back you thievin' bastards....back!

[|BUG| K-Man]

Hot Button Issues

Sheesh Shamu. For a second there from your post subject, I thought an email from at work had made it to a post on the Buggars site. 

That's the last thing I need, memos intruding on my recreation time.... 

<retreats back to corner>

[|BUG| K-Man]

OK... here's a somewhat serious reply.

Immigration is a tough issue because immigration and assimilation is how the US began, and really, became a powerful force. The "melting pot", as it is referred to, brought a variety of skills and strengths that united together were stronger than any one ethnicity. So, to deviate from a fairly open policy to a stringent one should be carefully considered.

I do realize that times have changed since the 19'th and early 20'th centuries and policies must be examined in light of that.

The economic ramifications of deporting all hispanic illegal aliens would be huge. In the small state I live in, hispanics (largely illegal aliens) work primarily in the poultry processing plants where african-american and caucasian's do not want to work. And the plants are still always looking for workers. Delaware is a big producer of poultry and ships all over the world. At any one time, there are (considerably) more chickens in the state than humans. And the chickens rotate to the processing plants every 6-9 weeks, so there's quite a bit of volume. There would be some severe market price increase if all illegals were deported.

What's the answer? I'm not sure, but I tend to think the answer is somewhere in the middle, including more complete enforcement of the immigration laws, but also working to make it easier to legally enter the US to work for a period of time, or emigrate, BUT by following the proper process. Part of the barrier here is the corruption in other countries that people are trying to leave.

Just my thought. Deport me to the Intellectual Defenestration forum if you desire.

[|BUG| Torlog]

I will not comment too much on this one, but what the immigration reform bill that is being hashed out it almost no diffrent from what is on the books now.  If the would let us enforce the laws on the books now we would not have a problem.  As far as the ones here there should be a fine and more, being that you would not believe how many of the 12 million which is a small number, are criminals.  Gang, cartel, and many other connections.  The ones that deserve a chance can show they do, because they are here an average of five years and go back.  As far as the chicken farms and such we have a lot of americans on welfare, nuf said on that.  And yes I know this country was founded through immigration, but things have changed.  The people we are getting as far as illegals are bringing the coruption here that they know in their country, and that is the biggest problem.  All of the LEGAL Immigrants did it the legal way because they wanted to be part of something and they kept their heritage, but when they did it they were Americans first!  I have asked many Illegal Aliens if they would fight for this country to get their citizenship, and I have not found one yet that has said yes.  The Imigrants that made this country said yes and did.  With many giving their lives.  So I have strong feeling on this subject.  If my little rant offended someone I will apologize, but am not sorry for the way I feel. I see a lot, every day at work.
TorLog

[|BUG| Shamu]

The current immigration bill is, IMHO, way to lenient......but it is a starting point.

I have little sympathy for illegal immigrants. While providing cheap labor for certain industries they have also taken jobs from citizens, held back minimum wage requirements and have been a burden on our welfare system.

None the less with the issue before us there obviously will be negotiations, they are not simply going to deport 12 million illegals.

Personally I wish they would but the realists in me says it won't happen. Like it or not, we will be stuck with many of them.

I do however feel they owe the citizens of this country a massive debt that needs to be paid before any consideration can be made.

Not to be overlooked are the employers who knowingly employ illegal aliens in order to obtain cheap labor and increase their profits.

These employers need to be held accountable and should also repay a massive debt to our society.

Perhaps I am somewhat bitter being the son of immigrants who came in legally, my father through Ellis Island and my Mom sponsored by her sister.

Both my parents obtained US citizenship and made every effort to become "Americans". I still remember my Mom teliing me she knew she was an American when she began dreaming in English

While this law is being debated and negotiated I do hope our borders are tightened to the point of shooting those sneaking in illegally.

I'll voluntarily donate my time for that task if they would have me

[|BUG| K-Man]

Don't worry Torlog - No offence taken, nor will be.

I agree that legal immigration should be way, way more prevalent than what it is. My question is, how do you encourage legal immigration rather than illegal? And it will take more than just making it impossible to illegally emigrate. So, realistically, how do you effectively positively impact legal immigration?

Torlog: I've been able to know many of the "good" illegals in our area who come here to work (in some cases to get out of a political/guerrilla hotspot), improve themselves, and gain a financial basis to go back home and live life with their families. I was able to see a number of them who did just that back in their home in Guatemala and see the positive things they have done after they went back home.

In a nutshell, immigration is an issue - no question. But I really don't think "just" tightening the borders will by itself solve the issue. This has to be coupled with other legal immigration initiatives.

RE: americans on welfare? Well, I say drastically cut welfare and see what that does to some segments of the population. Might decrease the demand for manual labor.

[|BUG| Seven]

hot button issues? lmao! I thought it was a topic about XXX subject   

S.

[|BUG| Seven]

this is just a general look at the immigration problem, not limited in the US problem and their borders..

Ok, first of all we must realise this is a global phenomenon, one of the main issues of our world nowdays that affects all the "rich" countries of the western world not only USA.

The fact is that the global population is raising rapidly. The other fact is that this raise happens 95% in the 3rd world/poorer countries. And we must also realise that 75% of the planet lives in poverty or under poverty levels.
We have huge amounts of young populations (when I say young I mean the active/working part of the population) that live in countries with no hope for a better life.  This demographic explosion creates even more problems in their countries. Loosing their youth and active workers make those countries even weaker and more vulnerable and this vicious circle goes on..

The unemployed in the 3rd world countries are more than 500 millions with 30million added every year. 

In the Western Countries (the most developed anyway) we dont have such demographic issues, on the contrary. Which is why we do need immigrants. This is also a fact, without the immigrants we would have serious economical problems, the welfare local dudes are not enough.

The 1st world countries need to manage the immigration. The ideal scenario would be to accept the amount of immigrants you can really absorb and give them the opportunity and the right to become equal members of your society. However this is not easy if even possible.

How to control the waves of desperate people who see us as their paradise and their only hope for a decent life? How to descriminate the ones that need to work and live from the criminals? How to make these ppl realise their rights and obligations in their new countries when most of them don't even know how to live under freedom? How to prevent the local ppl from getting xenophobic or racists when they see the newcomers as a danger for their own incomes, way of life and country?

There is no easy answer to this.
One thing is that times change, and the traditional kind of country with one nation and borders is no more. Globalization. Decisions are made not only for nations interest but mostly based on int.corporate ones. The centers of important decisions are not found in priministers and presidents offices anymore.

The other thing is what we can really do to make those 3rd world countries prosper.

I hear many times that 3rd world countries are filled with lazy people who only know how to populate in huge numbers and they are jealous and want to steal our prosperity.

It is very convenient to forget that their misery is OUR prosperity and basicaly our fault in most of the occasions. It's easy to blame their corrupted goverments but we shouldnt forget that corporates and financial deals mentain this corruption in the first place.
And dirty politics. How many times USA, UK and  USSR have supported resumes? Chile, Afganistan, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, South Africa and the list could be really long.

At the end it comes down to the basic: We do exploit the 3rd world countries, either by making money with THEIR national wealth (oil etc etc), by selling them our products (weapons is the no1 product in this category), by making them work very hard to produce cheaply what we consume, by dividing them into colonies etc etc etc.

We live in a planet with mutual interaction and influence. Living happily in our home without having poor strangers disturbing our happiness is not possible. As long as there is so much finansial gap between the populations anyway.


S (who is still very much bored in her stupid work)


p.s. Don't you think I have no idea what you are talking about.. 2millions of the 11 that live in Greece are immigrants and most of them illigal.
And this has happened the last 15 years. A huge invasion in such a short time in a country that it's poor and used to be 99% greek and under one religion. You can barely listen to ppl speaking greek in my neighbourhood anymore.
And even me I think sometimes that I would prefer our previous status..with only greeks. However I have accepted that times change and we must do the best to all live together at the end.

[|BUG| Shamu]

As Seven said, times change, and with that come it's problems and benefits.

I think much of the issue in the US citizens defining the difference between Immigrants and Illegal Immigrants.

Bleeding heart liberals only see Immigrants, more Conservative people see Illegal Immigrants. I am a Consevative.

I have absolutely no issues with the Mexican people, no predjudice of any kind. I even admire their work ethic and strength of family.

Initially we do need to modernize our immigration laws and especially temporary work permits and visitor visas. We need to tighten our borders stop illegals from entering.

We need to address those who have already entered and either deport them or come up with a plan so they may pay their debt to society.

In order to qualify for any compromise plan they will need to have been outstanding members of society with respect to our laws excluding the initial illegal entry.

We also need to go after the employers. If there were no work for illegal immigrants many would not be here illegally in the first place. IMHO, employers who hire illegal immigrants are a major factor contributing to the problem.

[|BUG| Drago]

Don't admire their work ethic too much shamu. I spent the last six years watching lots of em lean on toolboxes most of the day then brag about working till ten PM every night...yet getting nothing actually done.
I am from a farming area, hard work for me was defined by how much actual work you got done in a day. not just by how many hours you put in during a day...Thats why I now tend to make alot more than most others down here.

The family ties go both ways in the mexican culture particularly. I have at times been impressed in the safety net created by them, and have seen people trying to learn and become more pulled back down when their family got jealous...

I have seen the huge cultural difference in how you measure success play out many times with coworkers. I had some friends who made lots of money on "away contracts". that is when they would work for a few weeks in a different state or wherever the aircraft was, then come home for however long you wanted off. some of them now went back to "normal" jobs making less than a third just cause their family kept pressuring them to "get a real job". These are guys who actually had fun on away contracts and loved the flexibility of the schedule. yet they all admitted it was too hard to hear their family keep telling them they needed a real, dependable job, with regular hours, like all their cousins working at wal-mart...

1. There are no jobs Americans "Won't Do". There are however jobs Americans won't do for five bucks an hour. If the corporate world values the free market so much then let the sword cut both ways. Let the free market of "lawful citizens" determine wages by what they are willing to work for.

2. Have a two month lifetime limit on welfare. Provides a cushion for bad times. Yet has good incentive to get a JOB.

3. Non-Private Colleges will no longer charge tuition. They did not used to and it helped us become a superpower. Ideas and Knowledge is all that can keep us ahead anymore. Will also help people find and better yet, create, jobs that pay more than minimum wage in the long term.

4. Anybody who rents to, assists, hires, sub-contracts, takes advantage of, etc... a person illegally in this country is subject to extreme criminal penalties, consisting of real prison time for business CEO's or Officers, seizure of all business assets, seizure of personal assets. The only defense to these penalties is to prove the hiring authority made all reasonable effort to verify the person's identity and citizenship. Reasonable Effort Legal Defense shall consist of, at a minimum, Criminal background check, fingerprinting to be verified through interpol and the FBI, and Social Security number to be actually verified by the social security administration to cut down on identity theft. These checks are unnecessary for many customers and clients and only need to be resorted to in cases of suspicious activity to protect a company from "mistakenly" hiring an illegal...

5. A simplified, controlled, legal path for Immigration. Basic English Skills are Mandatory for approval. No we don't need thousands of melon pickers. however we do need the spirit of industry that many immigrants bring into this country. If the good ones are willing to go through a background check and monitoring for a few years once in this country, proving they are productive and lawful members of "American" society, then all rights should be accorded them.

6. Border Security.... NICELY SPACED SNIPER TOWERS COVER LOTS OF TERRITORY IN A DESERT!!!

With the improved immigration system in place, you can be pretty damned sure the ones sneaking across the border are not the cuddly ones deserving of a hug and a bottle of water.

we would even have lots of people to man them when we get our Soldiers and Marines out of every godforsaken part of the world that we are not wanted in anyway. Israel will just have to fend for itself, like a Real Country. Perhaps it can try making peace with this new incentive??

[|BUG| Drago]

P.S.  We once had a "Guest Worker Program" in this country. These people had no voting rights, no citizenship path, little hope, and it did make it harder for the poor working class to make a living through honest work. It was called "slavery".
The blacks quit.
Lets not establish a replacement underclass without rights.

[|BUG| Shamu]

we would even have lots of people to man them when we get our Soldiers and Marines out of every godforsaken part of the world that we are not wanted in anyway. Israel will just have to fend for itself, like a Real Country. Perhaps it can try making peace with this new incentive??

I agreee with a couple of things here that could also be considered "Hot Button".

One, I too would like to get our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan. It's so bad I am concerned that I am becoming a Liberal.

As for Israel, I personally suspect that our support of Israel is what has us in this mess in the first place. I believe it is the core reason for the difficulties between some of the Muslim faithful and the US.

When Palestine was hacked up, lands taken from the Arabs and Israel created as a Jewish state the writing was on the wall.

This is unusual stuff for me, supporting the Democratic position with regard to our military deployment and sympathy toward the Muslim cause.

Just a side note.....having seen how our soldiers were treated on their return fron Vietnam I am pleased to note the same is not happening to our soldiers today.

The focus is on the politician and not the soldier as it should have also been when Vietnam was an issue.

[|BUG| Shamu]

With regard to my opinion of the Mexican worker.

It was formed while working in Mexico for many weeks for Chrysler. I worked in both Toluca and Saltillo as a trainer in tool and die welding.

I found the men eager to learn, skillful in applying the skills and able to comprehend the dialogue even with the language difficulties.

In both facilities I established a relationship that extended beyond the work place, I visited and ate in their homes. TO this day I remain in contact with a few.

Granted this was real Mexico, not the illegal immigrants or tourist traps. What I do know is that Mexico is a major industrial threat to the American worker.

Any American worker who thinks the residents of Mexico should be judged by what they know of the "Wetbacks" is in for a rude awakening.



 

[|BUG| Medic]

If you want my response to this...

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